Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

[WickedCossack]

You keep saying that. The consulate all in is sepoy-based. Sepoy were nerfed. It's absolutely impacted, and we intended for it to be.
We felt HP was the right statistic because it is most relevant when trying to balance early pressure builds, which would likely become (more of) an issue after we buffed house cost.

Yea I keep saying that because it's your damn point in the post to me where you specifically address the HP issue after not talking about it for a couple of pages:

A change that used to be in the notes was to also change sepoy cost to 90-25 in order to not hurt their cost-effectiveness (we did do this for jans), but someone argued this was too small and would just be patch notes clutter (and unnecessary besides, because sepoy will still be cost effective without it) and I thought they had a point so we took that out. -10hp is not that big of a change for the unit in later stages of the game, really. The only significant impact is the TC now 2-hits them, which is exactly what we needed because we wanted to give India a general buff to their start.

You keep saying one thing then change your stance on it when it suits you, it makes it super hard for me to have a conversation about this. How much clearer can THE ONLY SIGNIFICANT IMPACT, and EXACTLY WHAT WE NEEDED be? You're being incredibly inconsistent and/or dishonest. I can not tell you how frustrating this.

In the same post you spend the entire paragraph preceding it explaining why the issue is committing under the TC. This is your damn point so yes stop being surprised when I bring it up.

The TC 2-hitting the unit effectively prevents early sepoy pressure from being potentially uncounterable in some MUs. Part of it is risk management.

Uncounterable? Are you serious at this point? An uncounterable strategy would've plagued an entire ladder/event to the point where the only strategy used is the uncounterable one.

In fact from what I can see the only time this uncounterable strategy was used at all was in a game against you, that you won.

Uncounterable. Aight. For realz.

[WickedCossack]

I mentioned maybe 10 times that this is about increasing build order variety in India games. If you honestly didn't catch that I question whether you even read my posts past the "we saw too many sepoy in the tournament" part, which you kept coming back to.

You are well aware I caught that since I broke down exactly what builds are used and how often which is something you hadn't looked at. I suggested to argue from a different stand point since you didn't provide any substance with regards to balance.

I'll play in the tournament, though am unlikely to spend much time practicing new builds. Anyway I'm confident other players are perfectly capable of finding innovative ways to adapt to the changes.

I think on the right map Brits are probably top civ, and have been for years, but they remain very map dependent and many of the newer maps favour aggression more than the early ESOC maps. It's funny, I've been trying to nerf them for ages but never got the proper backing, and now with the newer maps I'm not so sure but others seem to be coming around to the opposite side. Also we didn't want to do too much in 1 release. I'm curious to see how well Brit does this event though. I think on most maps they are strong but counterable.

Great, I'm glad we can easily determine what's uncounterable and what's counterable.

[n0el]

Okay now boys, simmer down.

Can't we agree that nerfing Sepoy HP does indeed affect the consulate rush? And that perhaps that in order to nerf Sepoy in a common sense manner, that change makes sense to be such that TC 2 shot them? That change then nerfs the consulate rush (which seems to be an agreed upon problem) as well as gives civs like China and Japan a chance to hold 12 sepoy better?

[deleted_user]

I won't be satisfied until mart and adam have settled this with an irl fisticuffs (bo21).

[Hazza54321]

is the cons rush a problem?

[Asateo]

is the cons rush a problem?

Apparently people don't like the all-in aspect of it.
Though, since it's pretty much the only strategy that works vs France atm, I'm asking myself how that mu will go now.

[Goodspeed]

You keep saying one thing then change your stance on it when it suits you, it makes it super hard for me to have a conversation about this.

That's your perception.

How much clearer can THE ONLY SIGNIFICANT IMPACT, and EXACTLY WHAT WE NEEDED be? You're being incredibly inconsistent and/or dishonest. I can not tell you how frustrating this.

It is the only significant impact (which doesn't mean it's the only impact; I didn't put the word "significant" there for no reason), and it is exactly what we needed, because we want to prevent early sepoy pressure from becoming (more of) a problem after the house cost change.

The TC 2-hitting the unit effectively prevents early sepoy pressure from being potentially uncounterable in some MUs. Part of it is risk management.

Uncounterable? Are you serious at this point? An uncounterable strategy would've plagued an entire ladder/event to the point where the only strategy used is the uncounterable one.

In fact from what I can see the only time this uncounterable strategy was used at all was in a game against you, that you won.

Uncounterable. Aight. For realz.

Did you miss the word "potentially"? You do remember the house cost change, don't you?
It's no surprise that you think I'm being inconsistent and/or dishonest when you don't seem to want to understand what I'm actually saying. I'm sure that's partly my bad, as I haven't been explaining it all adequately. Honestly this thread is a blur to me at this point. The past week is, actually.

[Hazza54321]

is the cons rush a problem?

Apparently people don't like the all-in aspect of it.
Though, since it's pretty much the only strategy that works vs France atm, I'm asking myself how that mu will go now.

usually shouldnt work vs france tbh

[drsingh]

Can't we agree that nerfing Sepoy HP does indeed affect the consulate rush? And that perhaps that in order to nerf Sepoy in a common sense manner, that change makes sense to be such that TC 2 shot them? That change then nerfs the consulate rush (which seems to be an agreed upon problem) as well as gives civs like China and Japan a chance to hold 12 sepoy better?

How much hp nerf are we taking about here?
Will sepoy with british consulate be 2 shot or 3 shot by tc?
If its 3 then the consulate rush is not affected. And the house change will only make it stronger.
If its 2 than that would be a big stat change.

[momuuu]

So bear with me, I'm going to try to say something that is logical:

Sepoy rush is not OP right now, its not even exceptionally strong. This isn't quite a fact, but strongly backed up by tournament data and I think any decent player would agree with this statement. That means that if sepoy are nerfed from 190 to 180 hp, then the rush would be underpowered since this is a big deal, its like giving the opponent colonial militia for free. This is all pretty logical right? I think this is something anyone would agree with right?

The sepoy rush is not a speed based rush, it's slow, hits at 6 minutes or something at a timing that allows the other civ to have made some units. If houses were to go from 80w to 50w, india saves 30 wood in colonial. That is 52 villager seconds. In other words, since you usually age with 14 villagers, you're slightly less than 4 seconds quicker to age 2. Let me repeat that: a whopping 4 seconds. The sepoy rush will always just end up getting 5 sepoys out and shipping another 5 sepoys, so the strength of this rush depends on nothing other than those 4 seconds. It's a slow rush, being 4 seconds quicker isn't going to allow india to deny a barracks or anything. The slow sepoy rush trades its units under the TC, getting value because TC fire won't be as cost effective as it is against other rushes. If it can't trade under TC fire anymore, it can't be effective right? I think it makes sense to conclude that this is a very big nerf to the slow sepoy rush. Since the slow sepoy rush doesn't seem too strong at all, I think that means with these changes the slow sepoy rush is not a viable build order anymore.

So the conclusion is that this change nukes the slow sepoy rush. Can we at least agree on this?

[Goodspeed]

If its 3 then the consulate rush is not affected.

The cons build is a timing attack, and is already not affected (much) by the amount of hits it takes a TC. -10 hp is still obviously impactful to its strength.

[momuuu]

Can't we agree that nerfing Sepoy HP does indeed affect the consulate rush? And that perhaps that in order to nerf Sepoy in a common sense manner, that change makes sense to be such that TC 2 shot them? That change then nerfs the consulate rush (which seems to be an agreed upon problem) as well as gives civs like China and Japan a chance to hold 12 sepoy better?

How much hp nerf are we taking about here?
Will sepoy with british consulate be 2 shot or 3 shot by tc?
If its 3 then the consulate rush is not affected. And the house change will only make it stronger.
If its 2 than that would be a big stat change.

Its still 3 shot with the consulate rush. It's affected still, but only marginally.

[gibson]

Not gonna beat a dead horse, cause others have already given plenty of reasons why, but sepoy to 180 hp is a terrible change. Yet another reason not to play on EP.

[gamevideo113]

Is there an ETA for EP 4.0 notes?

[drsingh]

If its 3 then the consulate rush is not affected.

The cons build is a timing attack, and is already not affected (much) by the amount of hits it takes a TC. -10 hp is still obviously impactful to its strength.

I was under the impression that there was going to be a cost reduction to go with the hp nerf. So that the 2 tc shot becomes the only targeted change.

If there is only hp nerf without cost adjustment then all builds with sepoy will be somewhat less effective. Like forcing people to try something else.

[WickedCossack]

That's your perception.

Yes it is. At this point the frustration is from how you've presented what you're saying. It's essentially a language discussion. Case in point, to address your last post:

It is the only significant impact (which doesn't mean it's the only impact; I didn't put the word "significant" there for no reason), and it is exactly what we needed, because we want to prevent early sepoy pressure from becoming (more of) a problem after the house cost change.

When someone talks about the only significant impact in english it's assumed that everything else has a negligible impact or is irrelevant to the topic no? I mean that seems an incredibly thin technicality.

Did you miss the word "potentially"? You do remember the house cost change, don't you?
It's no surprise that you think I'm being inconsistent and/or dishonest when you don't seem to want to understand what I'm actually saying. I'm sure that's partly my bad, as I haven't been explaining it all adequately. Honestly this thread is a blur to me at this point. The past week is, actually.

When you're calling something potentially uncounterable you are saying it's uncounterable in certain circumstances. Well then tell me what specific circumstances it is actually uncounterable. Potentially uncounterable is just waffle without mentioning any details that you can discuss. Uncounterable is still an absolute even if you want to qualify it with potentially.

[momuuu]

If its 3 then the consulate rush is not affected.

The cons build is a timing attack, and is already not affected (much) by the amount of hits it takes a TC. -10 hp is still obviously impactful to its strength.

Does this mean you agree with the statement that slow sepoy rush is nuked?

[Dsy]

Id see H2o's opinion about how strong sepoy rush is. He played lot of india. Maybe one of his main. If i remember correctly he always was boomy instead of rush...

[Goodspeed]

When someone talks about the only significant impact in english it's assumed that everything else has a negligible impact or is irrelevant to the topic no? I mean that seems an incredibly thin technicality.

Sorry. I didn't mean that it was the only impact. The sentence before I was talking about later stages of the game. I was trying to illustrate that the impact is in the early game, which is what we need.
You can make it a discussion about language if you want to. You'll have an easy time, because I've been writing these posts quickly. I wish I didn't have to. I'm an intuitive person and it takes me time to organize my thoughts and explain them in a concise manner. I don't think I've been entirely unclear though, and I feel like your own bias hasn't helped you in considering my perspective, either.

When you're calling something potentially uncounterable you are saying it's uncounterable in certain circumstances.

No, I'm saying it's potentially uncounterable after the house cost change (in the MUs where it's already strong). I'm not saying it's potentially uncounterable right now. The word "potentially" makes no sense in that context. I even added "part of it is risk management" in case it was unclear.

[Goodspeed]

If its 3 then the consulate rush is not affected.

The cons build is a timing attack, and is already not affected (much) by the amount of hits it takes a TC. -10 hp is still obviously impactful to its strength.

Does this mean you agree with the statement that slow sepoy rush is nuked?

You keep calling it slow but it's not that slow. Either way it'll be 4 seconds faster now. Nuked? No. Weaker? Definitely. If still viable, it'll be more of a harassment style than a full on rush after the change.

[momuuu]

Okay, you are beyond reasoning then. How is something that is made much weaker than right now that isn't even that amazing to begin with going to not be nuked?

[Asateo]

is the cons rush a problem?

Apparently people don't like the all-in aspect of it.
Though, since it's pretty much the only strategy that works vs France atm, I'm asking myself how that mu will go now.

usually shouldnt work vs france tbh

Last tournament final Blackstarp_OP won with cons rush.

If you know another strategy, plz share. :)

[Darwin_]

I have an idea: we ask a few of the high level players (maybe garja, hazza, wicked, gs, and others) to come up with their own patch notes for EP 4.0, which are then voted on in a public thread, and the one with the most votes becomes EP 4.0. IF the winner has a very small majority (maybe less than 5 votes) then the top two finishers are voted on again separately to determine a winner.

[gamevideo113]

Garja's notes were interesting although there was also some controversial change in there
- all ranged cavalry ranged resistance will be standardized at 20% (ERK included). Ranged cav with meelee resistance will remain the same.
What about yabusame? I don't think EVERY ramged cav resistance should be blindly changed, every unit needs to be taken it ints context;
- double faced armor card now provides a 20% hp boost (up from 15%) from both iron flail and meteor hammer while only increases the iron flail's armor by 20% (final value will be 36%).
Overnerf imo, meteor armor should also be affected. And in my opinion china cav is not even that insane, in fortress they have worse stats than a colonial hussar if you don't consider their special traits (flail's small aoe damage and bonus vs inf, meteor's range and bonus vs art)
- coffe trade unique church tech negative effect changed in +10% food cost for units (instead of -10% speed).
+10% food is nothing, this card would become a must have

[JakeyBoyTH]

Garja's notes were interesting although there was also some controversial change in there
- all ranged cavalry ranged resistance will be standardized at 20% (ERK included). Ranged cav with meelee resistance will remain the same.
What about yabusame? I don't think EVERY ramged cav resistance should be blindly changed, every unit needs to be taken it ints context;
- double faced armor card now provides a 20% hp boost (up from 15%) from both iron flail and meteor hammer while only increases the iron flail's armor by 20% (final value will be 36%).
Overnerf imo, meteor armor should also be affected. And in my opinion china cav is not even that insane, in fortress they have worse stats than a colonial hussar if you don't consider their special traits (flail's small aoe damage and bonus vs inf, meteor's range and bonus vs art)
- coffe trade unique church tech negative effect changed in +10% food cost for units (instead of -10% speed).
+10% food is nothing, this card would become a must have

this card is already a must have