Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by gamevideo113 »

Sepoy might as well have 270 hp and it would be the same in the TC vs sepoy scenario, it is actually 50% more durability compared to a normal musk for +20% cost. If the -10 hp nerf ends up hurting the unit's cost effectiveness too much then by no mean it should be couterweighted with a small price reduction, but considering the fact that it is basically a veteran musk in age2 idk if that is really necessary. This is the same problem with old han and trainable mamelukes and elmeti in age3, they aren't mathematically broken, they are just very good units (probably too good) for that age. If cuirs were trainable in age2 they would probably be broken because the unit doesn't really belong to that age. At least this is how i see the issue. At the same time it should also be a priority to preserve India's versatility and uniqueness, and i am sure it is not in goodspeed's intention to make all civs "semi-ff goon skirm civs".
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

gibson wrote:You just keep on saying over and over and over again that sepoy are op but mathematically they just aren't. With 180 hp they have 20% more hp and 9% more attack than a standard European musk. Going brit cons is almost always a shipment so if you compare brit cons sepoy to European musk that have musk hp sepoy are even worse. Now youre paying 20% more for a unit with 15% more hp and 9% more attack. Doesn't really matter that they have an already built rax, on a coin and no extra food crate start there rush isn't hitting til 6 minutes or maybe even a little later which hardly even classifies as a rush and with sepoy getting 2 shot by the tc you can hold that with tc fire 5 musks and mm. Lol the fact that you even mention india in age 3 with the sepoy card and mansbadar shows you're grasping at straws cause that almost never happens.

Yes on math they might not be OP, but in practice they are. In a lot of cases. Honestly the only scenario where you can tell that they're not so good is in a pure musk war vs Brits or Jap. In all other scenarios it's easy to say that sepoy are just more effective than normal musks. I'd rather have sepoy in pretty much any scenario but pure musk fights. And this without even considering that India other units complement way better than those of other civs.
The age3 thing does happen. India lamers generally keep making sepoy even in age3. Usually they send urumi or mahouts just to tank a bit while sepoy do all the work. Pretty much in the same fashion as Sioux lamer make pure BR and use WC or 4 axe or 3 dogs just to tank shots. Or same fashion of Otto FFers who make pure jans and send stuff to complement. But at least that's admittedly Otto design for the most part (they have few other valid options). India does have way more strategies available (that btw can involve using sepoy just not as only unit).
"Rush is too good for how straight forward it is" lol. So why don't you nerf aztec otto iro russia which all have faster rushes that are easier? If the best india play is the standard eco build how come no one does that in tourneys? Decreasing the cost of houses is practically irrelevant because india has wood trickles almost every player is floating a small amount of wood at all times anyway. It's not like its gonna allow you to get imperial bureaucracy alot earlier or get units out more than a second or two faster. It's just funny that first ep makes it much easier to camp in base by giving so many hunts on every map and now is nerfing ways to punish camping.

Iro is already nerfed. Otto same. Russia has not been that problematic so far. EP resources already made the contain style of Russia less effective.
Aztecs rush should be nerfed, provided they are given something to compensate. If you read the notes of my hypothetical patch mace cards are nerfed because they are simply too good. I don't usually do that but I could win like 60% of games by just doing the classic puma/maces over and over.
Same thing with ERKs btw. Like when they're fully upgraded and you have good eco it's hard to lose.
I do agree EP makes rush harder. That's not a bad thing honestly because the standard on the RE patch is such that rush civs all have like 55% or more winning rate and eco civs have 45% or less.
And for the record the maps I'm making lately all tend to favor active play, trying to restore a standard where aggressive play can work.

Now India vs french german port jap brit is gonna be close to unwinnable and literally every single other mu got harder. This patch just caters towards the play styles of the people who made it and requires stale semi ff builds every game just cause people can't handle having to adapt and instead just whine and blame the map when things don't go in their favor.

This is frankly just pure speculation. And I tend to disagree with it. It seems you are under the false perception that rushing with India is the best way to play India, which is not. Only vs French and Germans really and that's a problem with those civs for a good part.
The EP might cater toward a certain playstyle. That's not my fault. I personally do think that but I don't think it is the case for the sepoy nerf. Sepoy nerf to me is a general nerf, not even necessarily aimed at the rush.
As for the "the having to adapt" argument has little to do with the current patch team. It's more like that recent players just has that background. I do agree they are close minded in that regard.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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gamevideo113 wrote:Sepoy might as well have 270 hp and it would be the same in the TC vs sepoy scenario, it is actually 50% more durability compared to a normal musk for +20% cost. If the -10 hp nerf ends up hurting the unit's cost effectiveness too much then by no mean it should be couterweighted with a small price reduction, but considering the fact that it is basically a veteran musk in age2 idk if that is really necessary. This is the same problem with old han and trainable mamelukes and elmeti in age3, they aren't mathematically broken, they are just very good units (probably too good) for that age. If cuirs were trainable in age2 they would probably be broken because the unit doesn't really belong to that age. At least this is how i see the issue. At the same time it should also be a priority to preserve India's versatility and uniqueness, and i am sure it is not in goodspeed's intention to make all civs "semi-ff goon skirm civs".

Best logic in here
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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Holy fucking shit what a nightmare
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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ovi12 wrote:Holy fucking shit what a nightmare


Which part? :huh:
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:Dude, Germans get shipments 8% slower, that's why they have 2SW in age1. As good as it is, it is not OP. Germans age with the same amount of vills of French and they are the 2 civs with most efficient early game because they don't have unique way of booming like other civs.

I don't fail to see anything. Sepoy raises balance problems inside and outside the rush contest. Sepoy rush is almost deadly for Japan and very annoying for other civs. Sepoy with anything in front to soak up the damage of the direct counter are just insane vs anything.
Your examples make no sense and contradict you if anything. Skirmishers in age2 are good ye, except the civs that have them have other problems. Dutch and Aztecs only have pikes so their combo still suffer. Other civs get units with setup anymation. Asian civs get the best trade in this regard and in fact their colonial combo is basically the best.
Manor booming on the other hand has been considered OP ye. And it has been nerfed in past ye. On RE patch tho having a billion vills isn't as good as on EP. On EP Brits are borderline OP and manors should be nerfed.
Anyway I don't know what are you trying to prove. It's like you're pretending to teach me how to design a game, while I could argue I'm already better at that.
For the record, India can 10/10. And as scrubby as such should be it is in fact rather decent on the EP with 400w starts. That's another reason why sepoy deserve a nerf.
Honestly whoever think sepoy are not good for their cost is either blind or just biased af.

It's funny, you actually agree with me. You say that sepoy are OP, not that india with sepoy is OP but that sepoy, on their own, disregarding all other factors, are too strong. Yet, when I raise you the question if having a 4 villager shipment in age 1 would not be OP by that metric, in a vacuum, you act as if I'm being silly (while I'm literally doing the same as you are, looking at something in a complete vacuum disregarding anything related to it). You argue that 2SW is not OP because Germany gets shipments 8% slower. I argue that sepoy are not OP because India is a slow civ that can't abuse the sepoy.

Yes, if british had sepoy that would be OP. If Brits had a 2 SW shipment that would be OP. You completely agree that you cannot look at balance in a vacuum, that you cannot look at a civ bonus and go "that's OP", otherwise all my examples would inherently be OP and should, in your eyes, be nerfed. Are you just not seeing this flaw in your logic? Are you not seeing that you're applying double standards here? Are others seeing this? I'm legitemately curious at this point.

It's like you're pretending to teach me how to design a game, while I could argue I'm already better at that.

lol. I'm applying logic and you're agreeing with it, except that you disagree that you agree and use inconsistent standards just so you're not wrong in your eyes. That's all.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by momuuu »

gamevideo113 wrote:Sepoy might as well have 270 hp and it would be the same in the TC vs sepoy scenario, it is actually 50% more durability compared to a normal musk for +20% cost. If the -10 hp nerf ends up hurting the unit's cost effectiveness too much then by no mean it should be couterweighted with a small price reduction, but considering the fact that it is basically a veteran musk in age2 idk if that is really necessary. This is the same problem with old han and trainable mamelukes and elmeti in age3, they aren't mathematically broken, they are just very good units (probably too good) for that age. If cuirs were trainable in age2 they would probably be broken because the unit doesn't really belong to that age. At least this is how i see the issue. At the same time it should also be a priority to preserve India's versatility and uniqueness, and i am sure it is not in goodspeed's intention to make all civs "semi-ff goon skirm civs".

Sepoys stats disregarding TC fire are actually just average. If you regard sepoy stats with regards to TC fire they're indeed above averagely strong, but that doesn't lead india to be strong at all and it doesn't actually seem that india is a one trick pony at all. Even if some of the logic presented holds, it'd make more sense to nerf their attack than their hp while buffing other india styles.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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Jerom wrote:
Garja wrote:Dude, Germans get shipments 8% slower, that's why they have 2SW in age1. As good as it is, it is not OP. Germans age with the same amount of vills of French and they are the 2 civs with most efficient early game because they don't have unique way of booming like other civs.

I don't fail to see anything. Sepoy raises balance problems inside and outside the rush contest. Sepoy rush is almost deadly for Japan and very annoying for other civs. Sepoy with anything in front to soak up the damage of the direct counter are just insane vs anything.
Your examples make no sense and contradict you if anything. Skirmishers in age2 are good ye, except the civs that have them have other problems. Dutch and Aztecs only have pikes so their combo still suffer. Other civs get units with setup anymation. Asian civs get the best trade in this regard and in fact their colonial combo is basically the best.
Manor booming on the other hand has been considered OP ye. And it has been nerfed in past ye. On RE patch tho having a billion vills isn't as good as on EP. On EP Brits are borderline OP and manors should be nerfed.
Anyway I don't know what are you trying to prove. It's like you're pretending to teach me how to design a game, while I could argue I'm already better at that.
For the record, India can 10/10. And as scrubby as such should be it is in fact rather decent on the EP with 400w starts. That's another reason why sepoy deserve a nerf.
Honestly whoever think sepoy are not good for their cost is either blind or just biased af.

It's funny, you actually agree with me. You say that sepoy are OP, not that india with sepoy is OP but that sepoy, on their own, disregarding all other factors, are too strong. Yet, when I raise you the question if having a 4 villager shipment in age 1 would not be OP by that metric, in a vacuum, you act as if I'm being silly (while I'm literally doing the same as you are, looking at something in a complete vacuum disregarding anything related to it). You argue that 2SW is not OP because Germany gets shipments 8% slower. I argue that sepoy are not OP because India is a slow civ that can't abuse the sepoy.

Yes, if british had sepoy that would be OP. If Brits had a 2 SW shipment that would be OP. You completely agree that you cannot look at balance in a vacuum, that you cannot look at a civ bonus and go "that's OP", otherwise all my examples would inherently be OP and should, in your eyes, be nerfed. Are you just not seeing this flaw in your logic? Are you not seeing that you're applying double standards here? Are others seeing this? I'm legitemately curious at this point.

It's like you're pretending to teach me how to design a game, while I could argue I'm already better at that.

lol. I'm applying logic and you're agreeing with it, except that you disagree that you agree and use inconsistent standards just so you're not wrong in your eyes. That's all.

Nah, read my post again, I don't agree with you. I'm saying that sepoy are OP and they are with India due to the rush and other mechanics (having like mahout or urumi to tank shots for example).
Your point about sepoy not being abusable because India ages slow is simply wrong and I addressed it already in one of my previous posts. Even aging at 5 min with a middle map agra India rush is in fact rather fast. 12 sepoy+2 elephants at 6 min is quite abusable, especially since the committiment for such aggressive strat is little. India follow up in this case doesn't deviate too much from a standard build that isn't the max greed one.
And you forgot about the 10/10 which is one of the fastest rush.
Again thee is no flaw in my logic because I think sepoy the unit is OP and sepoy the unit within India context is OP too.
Sepoys stats disregarding TC fire are actually just average. If you regard sepoy stats with regards to TC fire they're indeed above averagely strong, but that doesn't lead india to be strong at all and it doesn't actually seem that india is a one trick pony at all. Even if some of the logic presented holds, it'd make more sense to nerf their attack than their hp while buffing other india styles.

No, sepoy stats are insane even disregarding the TC thing (which is super OP as pointed out by gamevideo). A unit that gets 209 hp and 25 ranged attack just after one card is insane. Add to that all other India mechanics (annoying elephants, skirm to prevent a pure musk war, fast anti infantry cav to troll civs who have good cheap RI) and you should get the idea of how good sepoy perform.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by gamevideo113 »

Jerom wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:Sepoy might as well have 270 hp and it would be the same in the TC vs sepoy scenario, it is actually 50% more durability compared to a normal musk for +20% cost. If the -10 hp nerf ends up hurting the unit's cost effectiveness too much then by no mean it should be couterweighted with a small price reduction, but considering the fact that it is basically a veteran musk in age2 idk if that is really necessary. This is the same problem with old han and trainable mamelukes and elmeti in age3, they aren't mathematically broken, they are just very good units (probably too good) for that age. If cuirs were trainable in age2 they would probably be broken because the unit doesn't really belong to that age. At least this is how i see the issue. At the same time it should also be a priority to preserve India's versatility and uniqueness, and i am sure it is not in goodspeed's intention to make all civs "semi-ff goon skirm civs".

Sepoys stats disregarding TC fire are actually just average. If you regard sepoy stats with regards to TC fire they're indeed above averagely strong, but that doesn't lead india to be strong at all and it doesn't actually seem that india is a one trick pony at all. Even if some of the logic presented holds, it'd make more sense to nerf their attack than their hp while buffing other india styles.

Well sepoys just don't care about TC fire, they can just stay under the enemy tc as long as they want and they do very well even against units that are supposed to counter them such as crossbows, so some civs struggle against the early sepoy presence in base. Sioux on RE for example have no chance against a 10/10 because cetans suck and sepoy (like musks in general in age2) are a very well rounded unit with no hard counter. Considering that 4 sowars come right after the sepoy rush, any ranged inf unit that has a slight chance to kill sepoys just dies to the sowars and that's gg. Sioux got buffed on EP so now cetans are stronger and you have teepees in base, so they can survive a rush from india, but other civs like china are not really in a good spot vs india because they either try to defend the rush and get stuck in colonial where india outscales them or they try to go for a messy age up. The strenght of china in fortress makes a bit up for the disadvantage that china gains in colonial but their eco is still behind and they are likely to lose. Obviously you can either touch sepoy or you can touch things on the defender's side by buffing xbows or their equivalent, so as you say i don't think that nerfing sepoy's hp is the only possible solution.
If you nerf sepoy's attack to 24 they need 1 more hit to kill crossbows, villagers and musks and that might already be enough of a nerf. After all balance is a subjective thing and there are many ways to go around one issue. The most outstanding thing to me though is their durability under the enemy TC, so that is why i think their HP needs to be nerfed. If they force their opponent to idle 13/14 vills in the TC they are already trading decently in villager seconds, and if you add to that that they can get some villager kills/force an xbow shipment it turns out to be quite a good thing for india to just camp sepoys under the enemy tc. As i said they can definitely use a small price reduction alongside the nerf so that their cost effectiveness is not hurt too much.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by momuuu »

Fun fact: There's actually no civ in the game that truly struggles vs 10/10 or slow sepoy rush except for maybe sioux, but sioux literally struggles vs any musketeer base rush. Actually the best rush against sioux is a france musk cdb all in. How peculiar.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

on RE patch 10/10 is a killer strat, sadly. On EP is mostly a underwhelming strat, except for 400w starts which combined with some good treasures make it a legit strat, sadly again.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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Post by lemmings121 »

Jerom wrote:Fun fact: There's actually no civ in the game that truly struggles vs 10/10 or slow sepoy rush except for maybe sioux, but sioux literally struggles vs any musketeer base rush. Actually the best rush against sioux is a france sepoy cdb all in. How peculiar.


well if france does a sepoy rush, it is indeed peculiar
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by momuuu »

lemmings121 wrote:
Jerom wrote:Fun fact: There's actually no civ in the game that truly struggles vs 10/10 or slow sepoy rush except for maybe sioux, but sioux literally struggles vs any musketeer base rush. Actually the best rush against sioux is a france sepoy cdb all in. How peculiar.


well if france does a sepoy rush, it is indeed peculiar

oops thanks fixed it
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:on RE patch 10/10 is a killer strat, sadly. On EP is mostly a underwhelming strat, except for 400w starts which combined with some good treasures make it a legit strat, sadly again.

its only a killer strat if you can play the agra fort on top of the second hunt XD
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

In general, due to layout and rersource placement of RE maps, the Agra in the middle is decisive. On top of that India shares attrition mechanics with other asian civs such as export, good unit cards, cheap plantations, etc. Most of times 10/10 games evolve into starving the opponent after the rush.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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Post by princeofkabul »

No need to bother Ask me playing on further tournaments with these changes. How retarded you must be for doing these changes for sepoy and janissary. ( Otto 210hp jans slow ROF abus and 4 mams) so scary, not that they were op in the previous patch anyway. And the sepoy nerf. You EP team completely want to ruin Rushing and heavy infantry units which are not good to Begin with (Said by mitoe) ottoman russia and india are completely weaponless against civs like dutch now for example( like Hell you can go 5 bank FF with CM vs russia and win easily. EP is basically nr 10 gamemode Everyone either goes full boom or some repetitive ass semi.
Also I haven't seen any objections so far why not to Buff crossbows which would clearly be an answer to the sepoy rush you dickweeds are incapable of holding off.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Dsy »

When india rush op anyway? with 400w 200f? It has only 20% chance to get that so dont worry and pray before start the game.:)
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Post by momuuu »

princeofkabul wrote:No need to bother Ask me playing on further tournaments with these changes. How retarded you must be for doing these changes for sepoy and janissary. ( Otto 210hp jans slow ROF abus and 4 mams) so scary, not that they were op in the previous patch anyway. And the sepoy nerf. You EP team completely want to ruin Rushing and heavy infantry units which are not good to Begin with (Said by mitoe) ottoman russia and india are completely weaponless against civs like dutch now for example( like Hell you can go 5 bank FF with CM vs russia and win easily. EP is basically nr 10 gamemode Everyone either goes full boom or some repetitive ass semi.
Also I haven't seen any objections so far why not to Buff crossbows which would clearly be an answer to the sepoy rush you dickweeds are incapable of holding off.

Can I put your post as my signature?
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by HUMMAN »

princeofkabul wrote:.

I want to watch your games play in tourneys ;)
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Inst »

Mitoe wrote:
fei123456 wrote:it may be too op. if china has 200f 400w start it's just insane (4:30 age 2 with 3v, 50 pop limit, and 7:00 age 3).
300f 200w 100random should be better.

and the territory army should train faster: 3 changdao 3 arquebusier = 540 resource, but it takes 33 sec to train a batch :mad:

You misunderstood the change. The only possible crate starts for China after this change would be 200f 300w and 300f 300w.

zoom wrote:Can Chinese survive the Strelet all-in, somehow?

7 Steppe Riders and 5 Disciples kill strelets really fast, you know.

gamevideo113 wrote:Lastly, the german bonus buff (-50 instead of -30) would result in a 11% discount on normal old han army (from 6%) and a 9% discount on reformed old han army, so it is definitely a relevant bonus for that army, but more expensive armies like forbidden army would only gain a 6% discount from the german consulate.

I think the German consulate is already better than you consider it to be. There's actually a very minor bug with the consulate, where you will receive 15 resources of the resource that the banner army you are training does not cost.

So, for example, when you train an Old Han batch with German consulate, you will receive 15 coin. When you train a Forbidden Army batch you will receive 15 wood. Basically the bonus is already -45. The reason the German consulate isn't used very often is not because the resources you save aren't worth it, it's just that British consulate is worth far more when you're actually fighting, and the units you can train there are arguably worth more than the trickles anyway and pay off faster than the trickles would.

If you wanted to make German consulate viable you'd have to do something like change the 400 export army to 4 dopps instead of 3 (which might actually be insane in Colonial) and improve the Intervention shipment from 4 dopps to 5 dopps. None of it really feels necessary though, Idk.

Garja wrote:Ok fine, but then just dont buff China at all?

If you think they don't need any sort of buff, then sure leave them as is. It's hard to say whether or not they need one though, as hardly anyone plays them on EP at the moment. I do think they could be quite good, but I haven't really seen anyone other than myself playing them, so I haven't had much opportunity to play against them.

Anyway, as I've already said I'm fine with keeping the change or discarding it; doesn't really matter to me.


German Consulate is equivalent to 20% extra HP or 20% extra damage, but the thing is, German consulate ignores unit upgrades for HP / damage. Whereas British or French bonuses scale down to 5% and 2.5% respectively in Imperial, German consulate still takes effect at 5-9% res.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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