Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

[n0el]

well, as with every other change the games will tell the story

[momuuu]

If india slow sepoy rush is destroyed then it is a terrible change.

[Garja]

It's funny how every Diarouga style is basically a GS build or someone else build.

[Asateo]

Anyway it's funny how everyone is concerned about the sepoy change just because they use the unit, while the rest of the changes of this patch are defenitely more controversial.

More then concerned about the sepoy change (yes I am), I am concerned about the limited buff if it comes to be. In your own patchnotes, you give far more buff for India then is proposed in this thread.

INDIA
- +100f crate at start.
- both wood trickle cards now require 1 population space to be sent.
- sepoy HP decreased from 190 to 180. Mansbdar sepoy HP decreased from 380 to 360.
- urumi ranged resistance decreased from 30% to 20%.
- mahout pop space requirement decreased from 7 to 6. Mansbdar respective unit takes double the population space (12).
- howdah population requirement decreased from 6 to 4. Mansbdar respective unit takes double the population space (8).
- gurkha now doesn't auto heal. Urumi auto heals instead.

+100f would signicantly speed up India's build (-30w for the house less so)
Elephants would be more viable with such a pop and the urumi change can cancel itself out if used correctly.

I'm not saying I want these changes in place, but they point to more changes being necessary if sepoy hp goes down. If I'm interpreting you wrong, please point it out to me.

[tedere12]

I'm gonna be so sad if sepoy get nerfed so hard. Basically flail rush is gonna be unviable.

[BrookG]

any change is fun
spice things up to make you think
malaysia is warm

At last, someone who
appreciates a haiku
sorry for the spam

[Hazza54321]

Cheaper houses? Hahahaha

[Garja]

Well to be fair cheaper houses is a stronger buff than +100f. In the first 10 minutes of game is like 300w saved and more importantly you prob get 1-2 more units out each batch early on. Slinged builds definitely work better since you need literally zero vills on wood if you open with karni 600w+trickle.

[Hazza54321]

Well to be fair cheaper houses is a stronger buff than +100f. In the first 10 minutes of game is like 300w saved and more importantly you prob get 1-2 more units out each batch early on. Slinged builds definitely work better since you need literally zero vills on wood if you open with karni 600w+trickle.

I dont care about whether its a strong change, its the least innovative and unimaginary change ive heard, also seems so random and has poor reasoning behind it

[WickedCossack]

We are nerfing the unit for 2 reasons. First, it's too strong, and second, we want to make sure that styles other than rush are actually viable. Currently, as mentioned, they just don't seem to cut it in the vast majority of match ups. So we are buffing all India styles.

When you make a couple of assertions it's nice to have some things that you can point to that support those right?

For instance, to deviate a little here, consider Brits. It's very easy for me to look at the data we have from the highest level of games played and make an argument that they are too strong.

So for example I can point to h20's analytics on the recent tournaments:



He concludes a civ that has a high mirror rate shows few options against them, hence they're strength.

We can have a look at how often is a civ used in tournaments to give as an indicator:



Well they've been used the most in not just the last tournament but the one before that as-well and have even increased their share.

I can point to the community balance poll that was held after the last tournament that you posted: http://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11390 that shows Brits as a top 3 civ.

Now I look at the patch notes and Brit's are not mentioned whatsoever which is interesting considering there's things that you can point to.

But ok that's not what's being discussed here so let's look at what you've said about India.

We want to make sure that styles other than rush are actually viable

I already checked the last esoc tournament and the TWC from the Quarters and up to see what is actually viable at the highest level of play. To add to that I had a look just now at the 2nd last esoc tournament as-well but they only listed the MU's in the videos for only the semis and finals but to summarize India was used 12 times and the strategies were:

3 British Consulate rushes
4 Defensive Gurhkas into stables
1 Karni Stable start
1 GFA 600/600
1 Nookta rush
1 Howdah FF
1 12 Sepoy semi FF

So only 3 games out of 12 were rushes and they were all consulate rushes, which as I've already said is the one rush strategy your change impacts the least (though yes it does impact it a little.) So when you say this change is to make sure other styles are actually viable I have to ask, what are you talking about?

If anything, no other civ has had such a diverse use of strategies.

I don't think we saw a lot of India in recent events anyway, which is partly why we want to change them.

This is demonstrably false. There's no need to guess, look at h20's analytics. Over the past two tournaments India has averaged a 9% play rate (8% in one, 10% in the other) which is just above the average. Yet you give the reason that you don't think we saw them a lot as a reason to change them.

India could not be in a better spot with respect to this. Again what are you talking about?

I get the impression that the people making the changes are more comfortable making changes to strategies they don't use, which is only natural psychology I guess, and not making changes to strategies they do use. I don't mean to attack you too hard since I'm sure I'd unconsciously be doing something similar I guess, at least it's how it appears to me. Even seeing both Garja/Noel mention they think it's funny people are talking about a unit they use. Yea obviously the people that are the ones using the unit are going to wonder what's up.

Also last aside to raphael, you know damn well your strategy isn't a rush, it's a Karni eco slow roll that starts getting abusive about the time the Brit consulate arrives. Which is once again a strategy this change is not specifically targeting.

[Garja]

Well to be fair cheaper houses is a stronger buff than +100f. In the first 10 minutes of game is like 300w saved and more importantly you prob get 1-2 more units out each batch early on. Slinged builds definitely work better since you need literally zero vills on wood if you open with karni 600w+trickle.

I dont care about whether its a strong change, its the least innovative and unimaginary change ive heard, also seems so random and has poor reasoning behind it

Ye I don't find such change particularly brilliant, but technically it works and at least doesn't create another exception.
I still prefer +100f, considering you can TP decently on 400w starts.

[drsingh]

I feel house change is good enough to boost india in general slightly. And will be good by itself to allow players to explore other strategies than sepoy rush. A 5food cost increase of sepoy would give additional necessary nudge to players.

Any balancing should only add options, without removing existing playstyles. So I disagree with the hp nerf.
Even when sepoy have additinal role as meat shield in mixed compositions, in absence of hussar like unit.

The boost provided by said house change would be balanced by sepoy cost increase. So current sepoy only strategies dont get affected. But all other options will get buffed slightly and be used in more than niche situations.
Completely nerfing sepoy rush is not good. Since there are situations where sepoy rush needs to be done against a better boomer etc.

If you take away uniqueness of sepoy and make it 2 shot by tc like musk. Then also add 50hp to sowar to equate it to hussar and similarly decrease speed of ashigaru etc....

In conclusion I would recommend trying smaller change(+5f) first in next patch instead of overnerfing sepoy in anticipation.

[momuuu]

@momuuu I explained before there should be balance between inter-civ and intra-civ diversity and we judge that balance to be off in India's case. Simple as that. It's okay if you disagree but when you try to argue that my goal is not balance but to change the game to favour my own playstyle, I just lose interest in the discussion. I'm so tired of hearing that shit.

Would you mind responding to the actual points I made though? Because by not doing so you're proving me right. And I guess it was a bit hostile, but that's really what appears to be the truth to me at this point. At least the actual balance changes feel like design changes to me often, design changes that I don't agree with. This change in itself has little argumentation in it that doesnt make it appear like the patch team just doesnt like slow sepoy rush, which is one of my favorite strats in the game.

[gibson]

Jerom did put in a decent amount of effort writing a short novel last page seems like it merits some sort of legitimate response

[lordraphael]

It's funny how every Diarouga style is basically a GS build or someone else build.

every build is someone elses build. He uses sepoys instead of zambs in age 3 however

[momuuu]

The thing I just don't understand is that all games played at tournament level involve mixed unit compositions, and all tournament data suggests that india is not OP. So does that not mean that if the patch team thinks a small buff can make india eco play viable, that then a small buff to india eco play in specific while leaving the slow sepoy rush in its strength would be a much and much better change? And even if somehow you magically conclude, despite what happens at high level games, that india's sepoys are too strong as a general unit, then doesn't it make much and much more sense to nerf their attack so that you don't cripple a core india strategy?

I cannot understand this decision if I have to assume that it's an objective decision that has literally nothing to do with preferences. Then I just do not get it, it does not even make the slightest amount of sense, it just seems dumb.

[lordraphael]

Well to be fair cheaper houses is a stronger buff than +100f. In the first 10 minutes of game is like 300w saved and more importantly you prob get 1-2 more units out each batch early on. Slinged builds definitely work better since you need literally zero vills on wood if you open with karni 600w+trickle.

I dont care about whether its a strong change, its the least innovative and unimaginary change ive heard, also seems so random and has poor reasoning behind it

its actually a pretty neat change. In line with indias civ bonus and buffs everything not a specific build. I fear its not enough of a buff ( tho i have been quite bad at predicting such things ) but the change itself is decent.

[lordraphael]

@momuuu I explained before there should be balance between inter-civ and intra-civ diversity and we judge that balance to be off in India's case. Simple as that. It's okay if you disagree but when you try to argue that my goal is not balance but to change the game to favour my own playstyle, I just lose interest in the discussion. I'm so tired of hearing that shit.

Would you mind responding to the actual points I made though? Because by not doing so you're proving me right. And I guess it was a bit hostile, but that's really what appears to be the truth to me at this point. At least the actual balance changes feel like design changes to me often, design changes that I don't agree with. This change in itself has little argumentation in it that doesnt make it appear like the patch team just doesnt like slow sepoy rush, which is one of my favorite strats in the game.

i think you were more than " a bit hostile ". You were hating pretty hard.

[Garja]

The thing I just don't understand is that all games played at tournament level involve mixed unit compositions, and all tournament data suggests that india is not OP. So does that not mean that if the patch team thinks a small buff can make india eco play viable, that then a small buff to india eco play in specific while leaving the slow sepoy rush in its strength would be a much and much better change? And even if somehow you magically conclude, despite what happens at high level games, that india's sepoys are too strong as a general unit, then doesn't it make much and much more sense to nerf their attack so that you don't cripple a core india strategy?

I cannot understand this decision if I have to assume that it's an objective decision that has literally nothing to do with preferences. Then I just do not get it, it does not even make the slightest amount of sense, it just seems dumb.

Sepoy has always been too strong. Needed a nerf regardless of India state. A nerf to sepoy damage would be worse than 10 hp nerf and also would make less sense at the same time since the unfair thing about sepoy is how bulky they are (together with insane attack ofc). And it would affect the rush because they wouldn't kill a vill in 6 shots anymore (and 12 a cdb if I recall correctly).

[momuuu]

The thing I just don't understand is that all games played at tournament level involve mixed unit compositions, and all tournament data suggests that india is not OP. So does that not mean that if the patch team thinks a small buff can make india eco play viable, that then a small buff to india eco play in specific while leaving the slow sepoy rush in its strength would be a much and much better change? And even if somehow you magically conclude, despite what happens at high level games, that india's sepoys are too strong as a general unit, then doesn't it make much and much more sense to nerf their attack so that you don't cripple a core india strategy?

I cannot understand this decision if I have to assume that it's an objective decision that has literally nothing to do with preferences. Then I just do not get it, it does not even make the slightest amount of sense, it just seems dumb.

Sepoy has always been too strong. Needed a nerf regardless of India state. A nerf to sepoy damage would be worse than 10 hp nerf and also would make less sense at the same time since the unfair thing about sepoy is how bulky they are (together with insane attack ofc). And it would affect the rush because they wouldn't kill a vill in 6 shots anymore (and 12 a cdb if I recall correctly).

Lets also nerf 2 SW because that shipment has always been too strong and needed a nerf regardless of germany's state.

[Goodspeed]

@momuuu I explained before there should be balance between inter-civ and intra-civ diversity and we judge that balance to be off in India's case. Simple as that. It's okay if you disagree but when you try to argue that my goal is not balance but to change the game to favour my own playstyle, I just lose interest in the discussion. I'm so tired of hearing that shit.

Would you mind responding to the actual points I made though? Because by not doing so you're proving me right. And I guess it was a bit hostile, but that's really what appears to be the truth to me at this point. At least the actual balance changes feel like design changes to me often, design changes that I don't agree with. This change in itself has little argumentation in it that doesnt make it appear like the patch team just doesnt like slow sepoy rush, which is one of my favorite strats in the game.

Try and look at this from my perspective. There are about 20 changes in this patch, and no doubt I will have to justify each one to at least one vocal opponent. I spend many, many hours defending changes each patch iteration, not just on the forum but in private discussions as well. You are 1 person, and we are talking about 1 change. Yes, we could dig into every little thing we disagree about. We could do that, and I'm sorry, you know I like discussions so I would like to indulge you, but I don't have the time nor the energy to do it. Besides, I don't think it would help either of us.
I found your post to be mostly repeating arguments, with a little more detail and a little more hostility. You have made your point, and I have responded to it in an earlier post and have tried to explain the reasoning for the change. You don't agree with it. That'll have to be the end of it for now.

[n0el]

What's the worst that can happen?

[momuuu]

Well, no EP for me anymore I guess. I also officially consider this a discussion victory by knock out

[Goodspeed]

We are nerfing the unit for 2 reasons. First, it's too strong, and second, we want to make sure that styles other than rush are actually viable. Currently, as mentioned, they just don't seem to cut it in the vast majority of match ups. So we are buffing all India styles.

When you make a couple of assertions it's nice to have some things that you can point to that support those right?

Oh you're still on this. Allow me to put it in no uncertain terms this time: The way I feel about Indians is not based on tournament data. It's based on conversations I've had with high level players, on my general understanding of balance as it is on EP 3, and on my own experience playing the civ. In that order. I was under the impression that tournament data supported my and other players' opinion that sepoy are a problem. Maybe that's not true. The reason I was under that impression could be some combination of coincidence (I happened to see the games where sepoy were prevalent) and confirmation bias. It doesn't matter though. I (apparently wrongly) mentioned this data because that way I don't have to fall back on arguing based purely on data that is not available to the public.

I get the impression that the people making the changes are more comfortable making changes to strategies they don't use, which is only natural psychology I guess, and not making changes to strategies they do use. I don't mean to attack you too hard since I'm sure I'd unconsciously be doing something similar I guess, at least it's how it appears to me. Even seeing both Garja/Noel mention they think it's funny people are talking about a unit they use. Yea obviously the people that are the ones using the unit are going to wonder what's up.

Have you considered that people enjoy sepoy precisely because the unit is too strong? Sioux players certainly enjoyed their BR, as well. And Japan players enjoyed the shit out of ashigaru before they were nerfed. OP units are always used more than other units. And when you nerf them, their users are always going to complain. And they manage to argue that you are taking away the civ's identity, as if OP units would ever not end up defining a civ.

I do see your point, but the popularity of the sepoy nerf among high level players makes me confident that I'm not in some kind of bubble of subjectivity here. I suppose you're just going to have to take my word for this, but I am aware of my own subjectivity and try my best to stay objective. I think I do okay, but clearly opinions vary.

[drsingh]

If sepoy does seem too cost effecient. Then we can just increase the cost by 5f.
That will affect both consulate rush and other sepoy rushes.

If musks go down in 2 shots that doesnt indicate sepoy must too. By that logic cdb, sw, sowar, cuiraseur etc shouldnt exist.
There was a lot of argument before about standardising. When i supported making more strategies viable. Having multiple ways to play a civ is not standardising because they all have their own way/execution of strategies.
But, if you go about standardising units (and maps), then all civ will start playing similar with identical execution.

Like wickedcossack mentioned the recent tournament games dont indicate pure sepoy 10 10 or op rushes causing balance concern. The rush most used was consulate rush which will be much stronger with proposed changes.
Even if some people have opinion based on current or past experience that sepoy is broken unit. Big changes should be based on objective data instead of subjective discussions. Which seems lacking currently.

By design I also feel india was not intended for rush, until 10 10 started getting abused. It seems like an infantry focused civ. And sepoy will still remain a part of many mixed compositions because of its hp in absence of other unit to fill the beefy role. So any nerf should target anything other than hp.

Sepoy shouldnt be compared to musk at all. Since in absence of hussar like unit. It has a wider role.
Other civ use Hussar to raid/harras. Sowar a poor choice and destined to lose against enemy hand cav. Hussar often used to shield skirm or musk. Sowar being fragile are not suitable for many 2 unit compositions. In small numbers without many upgrades gurkha zamburak will get countered by pure hand cav. Sepoy is essential part of indian army for a major(early) part of game, till other units get upgrades or more numbers. Mainly due to its hp and requiring more shots by many units. Hp nerf will make it like ordinary musk with different clothes and leave a gap in india's unit composition.

The contain strategies as were mentioned before in this thread dont mean much on esoc maps at high level gameplay. You will sit passive and then get pushed back by superior eco or superior age 3 units.

Edit- saw last couple comments after posting.
Instead of doing house change and hp nerf and waiting to further buff in next patch if required. We can house change, sepoy cost change, and buff/nerf in next patch if required. Will be more acceptable.