EP 4.1 Balance changes

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Italy Garja
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by Garja »

lemmings121 wrote:
Jerom wrote:Isnt it weird that asian civs where given a card thats basically better than old schooners?

uhmm no. ships are cheaper overall, and the old card with the new price makes a good final price.

You have to consider 70w to be standard. if you think this card is making it cost 50 down from 100 is op, but its only -20w actually.

It got better in comparison to schooners which is what matters.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by lemmings121 »

Garja wrote:
lemmings121 wrote:
Jerom wrote:Isnt it weird that asian civs where given a card thats basically better than old schooners?

uhmm no. ships are cheaper overall, and the old card with the new price makes a good final price.

You have to consider 70w to be standard. if you think this card is making it cost 50 down from 100 is op, but its only -20w actually.

It got better in comparison to schooners which is what matters.


Idk, its 50w for both, with free dock for asians and -20% train time for schooners.. is hard to value what -20% train time is worth it, but I supose both card are pretty much equivalent right now.

Its not like "oh boi new asian card is broken op"
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

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Ye they're equivalent or dock card is even better. Schooners used to be quite better before I'd say. Also train time is deciving because with 50w cost it's hardly a buff. Basically fish booming ends 30 secs slower but you just payed 120-200w more. Basically schooner card got worse and asian card got better, which has no balance foundation.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by _H2O »

Nice tweaks. India colonial combos (Gurka, sepoy/zam, sowar) just got buffed.


deleted_user wrote:WOW INDIA RECEIVED 38% HOUSE COST REDUCTION AND 6% SOWAR COST REDUCTION BUT SEPOY STILL HAVE -10 HP THIS PATCH IS UNPLAYABLE


This post is not long enough or condescending enough to get a like!
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by lemmings121 »

Garja wrote:Ye they're equivalent or dock card is even better. Schooners used to be quite better before I'd say. Also train time is deciving because with 50w cost it's hardly a buff. Basically fish booming ends 30 secs slower but you just payed 120-200w more. Basically schooner card got worse and asian card got better, which has no balance foundation.


I'm not that certain that RE schoones is much better then the asian variation in most cases.

Its 40w boats vs 60w boats + 200w + dock building/walking time in VS.
Also, the asian card gives you the 200w NOW, while schooners give you 20w at the time, in a longer amount of time, so it takes longer to pay back.

If you make a "small/standard" boom of ~~15 boats, both cards are valued at almost the same, or even favored for asian card. Schooners are clearly better only if you go full hispaniona fishing boats eco
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:Ye they're equivalent or dock card is even better. Schooners used to be quite better before I'd say. Also train time is deciving because with 50w cost it's hardly a buff. Basically fish booming ends 30 secs slower but you just payed 120-200w more. Basically schooner card got worse and asian card got better, which has no balance foundation.
Actually it does; Schooners is more viable than East Indiamen on RE.

As an aside, this little update actually nerfed East Indiamen.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by lordraphael »

ye india might very well be a top civ on no tp maps and an above average civ on tp maps
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

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Post by WickedCossack »

In situations where India didn't need Sepoys to begin with putting two buffs without seeing what one buff would do seems really really risky.

Like I said in the other thread I think there are alternative buffs (if it's even needed) that promote unit diversity while being far less risky:

If you really wanted to promote unit diversity then 2 really simple changes that won't break the game could be -10fd rajput and boosting flail speed from 4 to 4.5 or 5.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

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Post by CurassierAndCurassier »

deleted_user wrote:WOW INDIA RECEIVED 38% HOUSE COST REDUCTION AND 6% SOWAR COST REDUCTION BUT SEPOY STILL HAVE -10 HP THIS PATCH IS UNPLAYABLE


I'M GONNA START MY OWN PATCH. WITH BLACKJACK AND HOOKERS.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

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zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:Ye they're equivalent or dock card is even better. Schooners used to be quite better before I'd say. Also train time is deciving because with 50w cost it's hardly a buff. Basically fish booming ends 30 secs slower but you just payed 120-200w more. Basically schooner card got worse and asian card got better, which has no balance foundation.
Actually it does; Schooners is more viable than East Indiamen on RE.

As an aside, this little update actually nerfed East Indiamen.

Yes it is less viable because asian civs are already fuckin better with land play than schooner civs (Brits might be the only exception) so they need that card less. Some euro civs are highly reliant on the schooner card to be competitive with asian civs (ports, spain, russia). Simply put, you fucked up by making them equal because they're not supposed to be equal neither in value nor in viability.

Did the update nerfed the card by 1w? :lol:
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by EAGLEMUT »

Garja wrote:Did the update nerfed the card by 1w? :lol:
Yes. :chinese:
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by Garja »

lemmings121 wrote:
Garja wrote:Ye they're equivalent or dock card is even better. Schooners used to be quite better before I'd say. Also train time is deciving because with 50w cost it's hardly a buff. Basically fish booming ends 30 secs slower but you just payed 120-200w more. Basically schooner card got worse and asian card got better, which has no balance foundation.


I'm not that certain that RE schoones is much better then the asian variation in most cases.

Its 40w boats vs 60w boats + 200w + dock building/walking time in VS.
Also, the asian card gives you the 200w NOW, while schooners give you 20w at the time, in a longer amount of time, so it takes longer to pay back.

If you make a "small/standard" boom of ~~15 boats, both cards are valued at almost the same, or even favored for asian card. Schooners are clearly better only if you go full hispaniona fishing boats eco

You gotta wait for the dock card to arrive if you want to produce cheaper boats, but usually you have 200w to build a dock already. Then you can't spam from 2 docks anyway so the extra dock is useless. Also 70w just feels way more difficult to afford especially because asian civs are also building vills while aging.
Schooners was a perfect card with it's delayed payoff. It used to give 60w so after 7 boats it already surpassed the value old asian card.
Now the cards are totally equal except that the asian one gives an extra dock (usable because 50w boats) while schooner gives an extra 30 secs speed up time on a 16 boats boom. Even disregarding the fact that old schooners would save you 160-200w it's quite clear than now the asian card is better. And, again, asian civs already have better eco anyway in most cases.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:
zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:Ye they're equivalent or dock card is even better. Schooners used to be quite better before I'd say. Also train time is deciving because with 50w cost it's hardly a buff. Basically fish booming ends 30 secs slower but you just payed 120-200w more. Basically schooner card got worse and asian card got better, which has no balance foundation.
Actually it does; Schooners is more viable than East Indiamen on RE.

As an aside, this little update actually nerfed East Indiamen.

Yes it is less viable because asian civs are already fuckin better with land play than schooner civs (Brits might be the only exception) so they need that card less. Some euro civs are highly reliant on the schooner card to be competitive with asian civs (ports, spain, russia). Simply put, you fucked up by making them equal because they're not supposed to be equal neither in value nor in viability.

Did the update nerfed the card by 1w? :lol:
No, it's less viable because it is worse. Can you not see that?

Simply put, they aren't equal.

That's the joke.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by Garja »

Simply put it's fair it was worse.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by zoom »

WickedCossack wrote:In situations where India didn't need Sepoys to begin with putting two buffs without seeing what one buff would do seems really really risky.

Like I said in the other thread I think there are alternative buffs (if it's even needed) that promote unit diversity while being far less risky:

If you really wanted to promote unit diversity then 2 really simple changes that won't break the game could be -10fd rajput and boosting flail speed from 4 to 4.5 or 5.
I disagree. Changes to unviable units are either insignificant or more risky than the modest change opted for.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by Garja »

No. Rajput and flail elephant are both underperforming units and they're for the very reason he stated.
Sowar is totally fine in pretty much any way you look at it. -5f -5g might not be great deal but it's totally an arbitrary decision based on no practical or theoretical evidence.
Honestly this round you decisions have been shit.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by WickedCossack »

zoom wrote:I disagree. Changes to unviable units are either insignificant or more risky than the modest change opted for.


Sure the change by itself isn't huge, -5f -5c, though still noticeable, you could even call it modest.

But I'm saying in combination with a -30w decrease to houses in situations say for example defensive play vs russia where India could go defensive gurkha and various camels and arguably still be favoured without either buff I would call that quite risky. Still modest?

Yea I appreciate what you're saying with respect to touching things that are seen only occasionally because a new broken strategy might emerge but I was also led to believe via recent changes and subsequent discussion that we want to promote diversity in games. Was this not a predominant reason for the Sepoy change?

I also feel after having played India a lot and having used rajputs and flails in many games that the two suggestions I posted earlier are not risky and hit the correct weaknesses of the units, but sure that's just my feeling. Insignificant? Possibly, but at the very least it gets people interested in the unit and trying out strategies with them even if they prove somewhere down the line to be insignificant.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by Dsy »

Btw why you not start anything with goons general?
You keep wall price low because of them. Goons are the most annoying unit to deal with. Only for one reason: cant do anything vs it when they raiding. They cant be catched by any units. Can only be killed if you have more goons. But if you do then YOU start to raid your opponent with your goons. And he needs goon to defend. So world is turning around goons unless if you can contain a constant pressure on opponent or built lot of walls.
But its strange since all units can be countered defensive style. Melee cav can killed by goons. Inf can be killed by skirms. And even can hide vills away if its necessary. Plus you can catch them easily off guard if you have more army. But vs goons you cant do anything if you defend. (except make more goons and you start to raid too).
I think it shouldnt be ultimate unit for raiding which cant be countered. Or if stay that way, it needs bigger counter like skirms 3x damage or something. Since its pretty avarage or even can be called good in massive normal fights...
Or change its multi vs vills even less.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by momuuu »

Goons had their RR reduced?
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by Garja »

Nah goons are not that good anyway. That's your subjective opinion.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by Dsy »

I talked all ranged cav in general. And i said they avarage in battle. So i didnt say they are good.
They just cant be killed if they raiding.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by Garja »

Ye but that's fair I think. It's their perk.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by Dsy »

For me this perk isnt fair. Its just annoying.
Thats why for me id be ok if goons gets +10%rr back and get negative multi vs vills more for example.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by Garja »

Goons already have 0.5 vs vills. That's one of the reasons why they are not so good.
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Re: EP 4.1 Balance changes

Post by Hazza54321 »

the way to punish goon raiding is by pushing and catching all his ranged inf off guard, or raid his vills yourself

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