Livestock Fix

United States of America Inst
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Livestock Fix

Post by Inst »

When it comes to stuff that looks good on paper, Livestock is probably the biggest example. On paper, livestock allows any civ willing to build livestock pens to compete with economically boomy civs like Brits or Japan. In practice, however, the high upfront cost and long maturation time means that they'll likely be dead by the time they're ready to harvest.

One way to fix this would be to simply make them mature faster. But livestock are tricky: they're already theoretically overpowered, and buffing them further would make them completely imbalanced in both treaty and supremacy. A better way would be to downscale them instead: livestock cost half their current price, have half their food value, and have half their HP. The result would be livestock that'd mature faster, in 2-3 minutes time, without being imbalanced in terms of food generation. This would allow them to be viable for supremacy, without ruining them for treaty.
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by QueenOfdestiny »

Lifestock boom should be only available for treaty! In Sup it's usless to ship all those cards etc.
Lifestock is fine how it is.
If you want lifestock in Sup play Sioux and ship bisons.
Or play on PD and take the cows around the map and then take a native post to faster fatten and make skirmis from it.
shit juice :hmm:
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Rikikipu »

Livestock for creating animals is just bad. However the fattening rate is ok, since we already build livestock on cows/lamas/etc maps. So we can't touch the fattening rate. Imo we could change the cost of creating animals there, something like 40 food to create a 20 food sheep. In this situation you invest 40 food to receive 300 food at the end, so it's worth 260 food. Right now it is an investment of 100f for 300f so not great. Eventually nerf slightly livestock cards to compensate the buff for treaty.
Got to mention that a livestock is something that can change the entire meta in one single change, so although it's intersting strategically since it gives more options, we have to be careful with that
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by QueenOfdestiny »

I just imagine how broken would be Brits then? Ship 700f and 300% faster gathering
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Kaiserklein »

Making cows from a pen is just fine. It's only 80f, can fatten up to 500f, and the fattening rate is faster than for sheep. The problem is that you need to send a card for that :/ which makes it not viable.
Making sheep from a pen is bad, because as Riki said it's a 100f investment for only 300f, and it fattens pretty slowly.

So if we want to buff the pen, we could just let it train cows without needing to send a card. Or we could make sheep cheaper and/or fatten faster. But it needs to be tested, because we must keep in mind that on maps with a lot of livestock, making a pen might become OP then. The pen is already worth it when you find enough animals on the map, and now you would be able to train more animals as well, having already invested 200w into the pen anyway.

But do we really need and want to make such big changes?
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by sirmusket »

Kaiserklein wrote:Making cows from a pen is just fine. It's only 80f, can fatten up to 500f, and the fattening rate is faster than for sheep. The problem is that you need to send a card for that :/ which makes it not viable.
Making sheep from a pen is bad, because as Riki said it's a 100f investment for only 300f, and it fattens pretty slowly.

So if we want to buff the pen, we could just let it train cows without needing to send a card. Or we could make sheep cheaper and/or fatten faster. But it needs to be tested, because we must keep in mind that on maps with a lot of livestock, making a pen might become OP then. The pen is already worth it when you find enough animals on the map, and now you would be able to train more animals as well, having already invested 200w into the pen anyway.

But do we really need and want to make such big changes?

Would this apply to China villages aswell, if so then it would be pretty broken having cows fatten faster
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Dsy »

Making the livestock pen cheaper also a solution. 200w is a lot for it. It screw up timing delay units early. 100w would be nicer.
But its question of the maps also. If garja keeps making balance livestock by put free animals on the map then 200w also a good investment. But on RE there are rarely any collectable animals on the map. And people skip sheep treasures since they wont build pen for 200w for 2 sheeps anyway.
So if its stay 200w it have to be strong value to give back. But thats again EP is all about booming now.
If it goes down 100w. It can be less effective but still worth to build.
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by milku3459 »

What about cannibalism?

You can club villagers to get 70 food. You sacrifice long term eco for short term peaks and timings.
Good Aztec mechanic imo
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Inst »

@Kaiserklein: you're not thinknig about it the right way. The operating figures are .7 for sheep, 1 for cows, and 2 for villager harvesting and 8 with furrier upgrade.

Basically, livestock are a colonial-era alternative to shrines / manor houses / fishing. They allow you to bypass the slow villager build time, and allow you to colonial boom as any civilization. The problem is, if you kill them before 5 minutes, you'll lose out on the 80/100 food you spent to get them up and running in a way more complete than killing them at 5 minutes. So that means 5 minutes of vulnerability that you shouldn't have. Changing them to have the same fattening rate, but lower cost and lower maxes, means that livestock are now ready much earlier, and allow players to counter house boom, fishing booms, and shrine booms with livestock booms, which are more powerful than any of these.
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Kaiserklein »

Inst wrote:@Kaiserklein: you're not thinknig about it the right way. The operating figures are .7 for sheep, 1 for cows, and 2 for villager harvesting and 8 with furrier upgrade.

You say I'm wrong but you don't say why. Also I don't understand the link between your 2 sentences.

Inst wrote:Basically, livestock are a colonial-era alternative to shrines / manor houses / fishing. They allow you to bypass the slow villager build time, and allow you to colonial boom as any civilization. The problem is, if you kill them before 5 minutes, you'll lose out on the 80/100 food you spent to get them up and running in a way more complete than killing them at 5 minutes. So that means 5 minutes of vulnerability that you shouldn't have. Changing them to have the same fattening rate, but lower cost and lower maxes, means that livestock are now ready much earlier, and allow players to counter house boom, fishing booms, and shrine booms with livestock booms, which are more powerful than any of these.

Any kind of boom takes time to pay off. Why shouldn't you have 5 minutes of vulnerability?

When you get a stagecoach for example, it usually takes around at least 3 min to pay off (hard to quantify because tps give xp, and because stagecoach is virtually cheaper when you get it for more tps, but basically researching stagecoach takes 1 minute and then you'll need at least 2 min to get the resources back). 3 min is pretty short, but you need mapcontrol for this, and you take the risk that your opponent sieges your tps down and/or benefits from your stagecoach (a pretty big risk).

When you build a manor, it takes 4-5 min to pay off. And the vil you get will rely on natural resources.

When you fish on RE, you need to invest a card (schooners), pay for at least 2 docks (400w) in order to make that card pay off, and still pay 40w per fishing boat (approx 70f, for a boat that gathers as fast as a vil on berries). I don't know exactly how long that takes to pay off, but it's probably much more than 5 minutes.

A 75w shrine takes 2.5-3 min to pay off, plus a card, plus allying with your consulate to ports instead of getting another bonus like the jap isolation attack boost. And it can get sieged down easily.

Note how all the booms I explained require some mapcontrol and/or rely on natural resources, and sometimes also require a card. A pen doesn't. So why should it be fast to pay off?
Another boom that requires no natural res/mapcontrol/card is the bank boom. A bank takes more than 4 min to pay off (even on EP), and that's still a super good boom.
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Kaiserklein »

Livestock boom actually sucks because it in fact takes longer than 5 min to pay off. Plus, it requires your vils to stop gathering resources to instead go on livestock, so the extra food income per villager and per second is close to 1.2 food/sec, not 2 food/sec. The dead livestock also decays, so you probably lose around 10% of your food there. And most importantly, it pays off only when you start eating your livestock (once it's fat), while other booms start to slowly pay off shortly after the investment, which makes livestock boom weaker for a while.

So: sheep need 6 min to get fat. And then, you still need to eat them, which actually takes a lot of time in most cases (if you put a lot of vils on your sheep, you will eat them fast, but you will also be mismacroed and won't be able to spend your food, which is pretty useless). You get back around 270f or so (taking decay into account) for a 100f investment, which is only 170f per sheep. But wait, 270f is 135 sec of gathering for a villager, which is basically 110f on hunts (and that's without steel traps lol). So you in fact got only 60f extra out of one sheep. So if you made 10 sheep, you will get approx 600f for free, once all sheep are fat and eaten.
So you pay 200w, and idle 1000f for 6-10 min or so, only to get your 1000f back and an extra 600f at the end of the day.

And if you want to go for cows, or to gather your livestock 300% faster, you need to spend a card. Then, for that 6-10 min window, you're going to be not only 200w + 1000f behind, but also one card behind. The other guy can have for example 700g shipment + 1000f + 250g (more or less equivalent to 200w), which is basically a fortress age, and come in your base way before the 6-10 min are over, with age 3 units and a mass of age 3 unit shipments, before you can even use your livestock. Or he can also get an extra mass equivalent to 20 musks or so, and probably shit on you even faster.


Now, that's why it sucks. And that's why I proposed these changes earlier. I don't think the changes you proposed are enough. It will mean that the boom would pay off earlier, which means you wouldn't be weak for so long (3-5 min instead of 6-10 min). That's nice, it's better for sure. But you still won't get more resources from that boom overall. You will pay 200w and idle 500f for 3-5 min, only to get your 500f back and an extra 300f at the end of the day. And you'll have to idle your food again when you want to train more sheep, while with other booms you can just sit on your eco and start massing, while probably getting a better resources income. For the record, 1 tp stagecoach (and usually you have more than 1) set on food (which is bad, but whatever) will still get you 480f in 4 min, which is better than your OP sheep boom, for a cost of 400w + 200f (similar to 200w + 500f).
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Inst »

KaiserKlein: your changes are too heavy, and are going to require multiple reworks of livestock because the initial change will move them into the overpowered range. With Fulling Mills, 20 cows / water buffaloes are equivalent to 20 villagers, with 4 villagers constantly slaughtering and harvesting livestock. Increasing livestock harvest rate under your paradigm would change them to closer to 40 villagers, meaning that in Treaty they'd become extremely imbalanced, especially in combination with things like Temple of Heaven and Fulling Mills.

I am basically assuming Fulling Mills for livestock, a card that's available only to British, Chinese, and Iroquois. If that's an issue, change livestock harvesting speed to 4/second and reduce Fulling Mills to 100%. That gives the same Fulling Mills power, but reduces the number of villagers needed to harvest livestock for civs without Fulling Mills.
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Re: Livestock Fix

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Post by deleted_user0 »

I think we can agree without math that training sheep from livestock is not the optimal build
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Kaiserklein »

@Inst You seem to just ignore my detailed post. I literally explained why your changes wouldn't work, and why making animals from pens is garbage. And no, you don't just get away with shipping livestock upgrades like that in sup.


My changes aren't heavier than yours. Changing the stats of all the livestock is actually more drastic than letting people train cows or making the pen fatten faster/reducing the price of sheep. Your changes mean that all the livestock you can grab for free on the maps will be half as good as before, that's heavy as fuck.

Making a pen when you find 10 yaks, for example, would not be good anymore, since you'd get only half the food out of it. So, if anything, your changes would make people build even less livestock pens :S

Ah, and making vils gather on herdables at a rate of 4 food/sec would also change the efficiency of eating livestock without a pen. Which is, actually, the most widespread way of eating livestock, in case you didn't know. Another heavy change.


Btw, EP is for sup, not for treaty. There's another patch for treaty, so who cares. Cowing doesn't need a buff in treaty anyway.
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Inst »

I care a lot less about livestock that lay around the map, what this is really about is the livestock boom strat, i.e, try a livestock boom deck with China against a player that's 10 PR lower than you. Livestock Boom isn't really viable as is, but see how powerful Livestock Boom can be if your opponent is of significantly lower skill level. Then imagine if Livestock Boom were upped as you'd prefer; it would be possible to do a Livestock Boom and not die, and once your situation is stabilized, livestock boom becomes destabilizing and gamebreaking.

Seriously, when you have 20 cows, and you are guaranteed the 20 cows will be harvested without you losing the game, it's equivalent to 20 shrines. Imagine China with 20 shrines, or Iroquois with 20 shrines. Now that's scary, isn't it?
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Inst »

Look, it's a modeling dispute. Let's just pretend that livestock auto-generate food instead of being discrete units that generate 0 food until full, then require VS to harvest. Let's say the VS is tacked in. Then sheep produce about .5 food / second, and cows provide .7 food / second. How imbalanced would livestock boom be then? Neither of them are exactly villagers when it comes to cost efficiency, but you're not limited by town centers when it comes to booming with livestock. Imagine this model, and I think you'll understand why I'm telling you a straight buff to lifestock fattening speed is broken. That's what you're not considering. You say you're Paris-based, perhaps it's an English issue.
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Re: Livestock Fix

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Post by Hidddy_ »

@Inst no offense to you but you are a 2nd lt from what I remember and frequently host "1v1 please rush me" lobbies in order to play very specific strats to test all your theories. Then you come here and make a claim based off that, not only is the process a bit bias but also you don't seem to get why standard play is standard play. Standard play evolved after years of competitive, high-level 1v1 play, not after weeks of playing in a controlled environment against low ranked opponents. As Kaiser explained above, you don't get away with shipping those kinds of cards in sup simply bc it's just bad, and your changes are much too drastic to be implemented.
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Kaiserklein »

@Inst dude, as you can see I made very detailed posts with some maths inside. Are you saying the maths are wrong? If yes, please show why. Otherwise, if the maths are correct, why do you keep arguing? I just explained that 10 sheep will give you only an extra 600f (and it's even a bit less if you have steel traps) after 6-10 min of idling 1000f and after paying 200w. It's just bad, bad, bad. It's not arguable, really. It's just pure shit.

Inst wrote:I care a lot less about livestock that lay around the map, what this is really about is the livestock boom strat

Cool that you don't care about the livestock on the map, but it's actually much more important than your livestock boom thing. At high level, no one ever trains livestock, but everyone cares about grabbing them on the map. Your changes would kill that, so they're bad changes. When you want to implement changes, you need to think about all the implications, not just about what you like to see... And anyway, as I explained, your changes wouldn't even make livestock boom much better, because you still wouldn't get a decent income out of the sheep you trained, and shipping a card to train cows would still be game losing.

Inst wrote:try a livestock boom deck with China against a player that's 10 PR lower than you. Livestock Boom isn't really viable as is, but see how powerful Livestock Boom can be if your opponent is of significantly lower skill level.

I could argue that going for an all-in rush every game is super powerful, because it would work against people 10 pr under me... That's bullshit.

Inst wrote:Then imagine if Livestock Boom were upped as you'd prefer; it would be possible to do a Livestock Boom and not die, and once your situation is stabilized, livestock boom becomes destabilizing and gamebreaking.

You would need to test it, or at least to do some maths the way I did, to be able to tell whether my changes would make livestock boom gamebreaking. My guess is that training cows, even without needing to change a card, would still be shit. You pay 200w, idle 800f for 10 cows for 6-10 min (cows also take 6 min to fatten), and then get 500f - 50f (decay) - 200f (what your vils would gather on hunts instead of gathering 450f on a cow) - 80f (cost of a cow) = 170f per cow, which is 1700f extra for your 10 cows.
It's much better than with sheep (which is why I proposed that change lol) but I don't think it's broken. Basically, you're 10 musks behind for the 6-10 min of waiting for your investment to pay off, and then you're able to mass 20-25 musks from the 2500f income. It's still bad I think. You'd get better results with other kind of boom, plus your investment would start to pay off slowly, as I explained already.

Inst wrote:Seriously, when you have 20 cows, and you are guaranteed the 20 cows will be harvested without you losing the game, it's equivalent to 20 shrines. Imagine China with 20 shrines, or Iroquois with 20 shrines. Now that's scary, isn't it?

I just explained that 10 cows would give you an extra 1700f after, say, 8 min. 10 shrines set on wood will bring 2160 wood after 8 min. Then, I'd need to know how much the shrines cost (can be 75w, 94w, 106w, or 125w), but if we take a value of 100w for a shrine, it's still 1160 extra wood, which is better than 1700f. Plus (again), the income is continuous, unlike livestock boom. Plus, once you ate your cows, you need to pay another 800f if you want to boom again, while the shrines will keep producing for free... So tell me, how are 20 cows equivalent to 20 shrines ?

Inst wrote:Look, it's a modeling dispute. Let's just pretend that livestock auto-generate food instead of being discrete units that generate 0 food until full, then require VS to harvest. Let's say the VS is tacked in. Then sheep produce about .5 food / second, and cows provide .7 food / second. How imbalanced would livestock boom be then? Neither of them are exactly villagers when it comes to cost efficiency, but you're not limited by town centers when it comes to booming with livestock. Imagine this model, and I think you'll understand why I'm telling you a straight buff to lifestock fattening speed is broken. That's what you're not considering. You say you're Paris-based, perhaps it's an English issue.

But man, why would you pretend that? Your model is completely wrong. You ignore the downsides of livestock booming, and then argue it's OP. But the fact that you need to wait until the animals are full to eat them, or that the food decays, are exactly what makes livestock booming garbage.
And pretending I don't understand you because of my terrible English isn't really gonna make you look like you're right. Do some maths like I did, and show me how good livestock booming is, I'll wait.
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Dsy »

I make 10 sheeps = 1000f + 200w
They can give back = 3000f

You gather 2/s which means collecting 3000f = 1500s
Simple animals collect in 1500s is = 1638f

Conclusion:
Lose 1638f+1000f+200w = 3038f
Win=3000f

Its not too nice.
If its correct.
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Garja »

somppukunkku wrote:I think we can agree without math that training sheep from livestock is not the optimal build

Yes we can
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Lukas_L99 »

Dsy wrote:I make 10 sheeps = 1000f + 200w
They can give back = 3000f

You gather 2/s which means collecting 3000f = 1500s
Simple animals collect in 1500s is = 1638f

Conclusion:
Lose 1638f+1000f+200w = 3038f
Win=3000f

Its not too nice.
If its correct.


You donā€™t even win 3000 food, thanks to decay its more like 240 per sheep or something.
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Inst »

We are talking past each other, don't you know? The entire name of the thread is "livestock fix", i.e, livestock is not working as it should. I have made no argument that building livestock is "good" in its present implementation either in RE or EP, my point is that if you significantly decrease the base fattening time from 5 minutes to 3 minutes with no other changes, you threaten to make livestock broken.

Let's assume 2 cards; Cows, Fulling Mills. For 80 food, in 3 minutes, you get 360 net food. Even when you factor in VS and build costs, this translates to 2 food per second for a cost of only 80 food, and the 3 minutes is survivable. Add in the fattening rate upgrade, you get 2.6 food / second with a 140 second fattening time. Add in the stockyards card to the fattening rate, you get 120 second fattening times with an effective 3.2 food / second generation rate. Without Fulling Mills, the base yield rate is 1.5 food / second assuming .75 food per VS, and .94 / second with all hunt upgrades. With the fattening rate upgrade, it comes out to 1.2 food / second, and with stockyards on top of it, it's 1.51 food / second.

I mean, if you want to change Livestock that way, be my guest, I am just warning you you'll end up having to nerf related cards (probably Fulling Mills) later on.

And FYI, I am very livestock intensive, and I, in 90% of games, capture the majority of the livestock.

My real objective is that livestock booming should be a viable strategy for British, Iroquois, and especially the Chinese, who have no real economic bonuses worth talking about. A viable livestock boom means Chinese Colonial is now workable. As is, trying Chinese livestock (I'd love to see Aizamk trying the weak Chinese livestock strat, maybe he'd manage to pull it off even with 6 minute fattening times) is only a comedy strategy worthwhile only vs noobs (and maybe British and Japanese, since they tend to boom heavily, but Livestock Boom is stronger than Japanese shrine boom).
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Hidddy_ »

Inst wrote:especially the Chinese, who have no real economic bonuses worth talking about. A viable livestock boom means Chinese Colonial is now workable
I don't really think a livestock boom is what is holding back china from being a viable age 2 civ, but really they are already strong in age 3 and especially in the lategame. As for eco bonuses, you can age with the tower (pretty much a factory), you can train vils even while aging up, Asian market techs are just too good, you can make better use of the livestock on the map bc of your villages, you get tons of free units (not really an eco bonus but it does give you more stuff), I think those are pretty relevant eco bonuses. If you want to talk about less relevant bonuses such as the Russian factory, the German trickles, French consulate 5% eco bonus, and the possibility of 120 vils then you see they have a ton of eco bonuses.
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by deleted_user »

somppukunkku wrote:I think we can agree without math that training sheep from livestock is not the optimal build

No we need to math it out. All math, all the time. We shouldn't even play EP now that I think about, but allow super advanced AIs to solve the game for us and grace us with their perfect builds. Now THAT is optimal AoE. This is no longer a fun RTS but an exhaustive exercise in mathematical problem solving. Yee haw!
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Re: Livestock Fix

Post by Dsy »

I wanna understand what you write. But i havent got the game installed now, so cant check the cards and the gather rates for herdables. I dont even know the livestock upgrades. Also their cost is intresting.

I understand there are cows. They cost 80f and when fat they are 500f.

Two main factors are whats gathering speed from the cows: x base, +y% card bonus, +z%upgrade
Whats the fattaning speed: x base, +y% card bonus, +z%upgrade

Could you list the base and card and upgrade bonuses for me? :D

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