Abus gun readjusted stats

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Italy Garja
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

Post by Garja »

Yep they don't have a counter to them but they can win? And of course abus should fire at normal rof.
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

Post by Hazza54321 »

sure, but if its a macro game then sure they need a counter to goons
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

Post by Cometk »

Garja wrote:
Cometk wrote:they’re skirmishers that are in the artillery foundry for flavor and balance purposes

Nope. I think you are really missing the point here.
They're artllery units but with infantry tag for design and balance purposes. Basically just like grenadiers, except grens are HI while abus don't have that tag. Aside from that, the only thing that they share with skirmishers is the multiplier against HI and ranged cav, while everything else is different.
They are trained from artillery foundry, cost 2 pop, they have siege damage in ranged mode, they have 18 max range and 4 min range. They have a a different range resistance value. Their multipliers are an hybrid between skirms and artillery. Notably they have x0.5 vs cav rather than x0.75. Then they have x1.5 vs ranged cav just like skirms.

Anyway the point is: they're not supposed to counter goons. People want them to counter goons because otherwise Otto don't have a specific counter. Well guess what, Otto are not supposed to have a specific counter. They still do fine vs goons when mixed with Jans. For what concerns units, jan-abus is the counter to goons.

i believe that you're the one missing the point really. the semantics over whether they're an artillery unit or infantry unit is ultimately pointless: what matters more is that you think they shouldn't counter goons. why is that? they're a unit who functions as a skirmisher-type unit for the civilization they're available with; no matter what your technical classification for them is, they are used as skirmishers. and they do reasonably well against dragoons when they're en masse and not out of position. so why, according to you, are they not supposed to counter goons?

edit: i'll add that i think you and hazza are on different pages. as you're arguing, goons aren't a problem for ottoman in 1v1 (i think most people will agree with you on that), but hazza is likely talking about how ottoman performs in team games, in which they ARE underwhelming.
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

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Cometk wrote:i believe that you're the one missing the point really. the semantics over whether they're an artillery unit or infantry unit is ultimately pointless: what matters more is that you think they shouldn't counter goons. why is that? they're a unit who functions as a skirmisher-type unit for the civilization they're available with; no matter what your technical classification for them is, they are used as skirmishers. and they do reasonably well against dragoons when they're en masse and not out of position. so why, according to you, are they not supposed to counter goons?

I agree the semantic is not the point here. Unit and civ design is.
I agree that they're used as skirmishers and they do reasonably well vs dragoons under those circumstances. But they are not skirmishers! They're artillery.
Jan abus is more of a musk cannon combo than musk-skirm, really. Or at least, it is an hybrid of the two. Otto simply don't have a skirm-type unit, just like they don't have pike-type unit. They only have jans. Abus gun is then a unique artillery unit, filling the role of both artillery and skirms.
Because of this reason, they're not supposed to counter goons, they just do less worse vs them than standard artillery. And in that sense they don't need an extra multiplier vs goons.
With all this said, increasing the multiplier vs ranged cav could be appropriate in case of a generic damage reduction to mantain the status quo.

Hazza54321 wrote:sure, but if its a macro game then sure they need a counter to goons

If it is a straight up 1v1 macro game you just lose, as you should. If it is a team game you either play it in control from start to finish like you would in a 1v1 or simply delegate the role of goon-counter to someone else.
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

Post by Darwin_ »

Hazza54321 wrote:even on re otto has no counter to mass goons, at least abus guns fired more quickly

I think its fine that otto have no hard counter to goons because abus counter artillery which IMO makes up for it. It is kind of annoying that full goon works compositionally-wise, but if otto is playing correctly than their opponent shouldn't have enough mass to effectively counter.

My personal idea:
Same cost, hp, resist, hand/siege attack, RoF as RE, but change ranged attack to 34 with 1.5x heavy infantry, 0.5x cavalry, 1.75x ranged cavalry, 0.2x artillery.
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

Post by Hazza54321 »

1v1 if otto goes water which is one of the few options otto has right now, then it usually gets to a macro game, in teamgame youre usually the infantry guy ofc youre the one dealing with goons, "playing it control" doesnt neccessarily work as teamgames are so random
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

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Eh, it's not like they don't have units to contrast goons at all. They can make pure jans, jan-abus or pure CA. On water being outplayed a bit by goon mobility isn't that big deal because half of eco is on sea anyway.
In team is the inf guy who deals with goons? Since when and how so? Couldn't the other guy just make goons on his own? If team games are "so random" then don't bring them as a relevant case for balance.
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

Post by Hazza54321 »

well considering team is the most played gamemode on the patch it should be taken into consideration, like the uhlan hp for example, or the 70w boats
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

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Arguable imo. But anyway I don't think abus not hard countering goons has ever been a team game issue anyway. As I said, don't expect to counter goons with artillery.
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

Post by saveyourskill »

Garja wrote:Arguable imo. But anyway I don't think abus not hard countering goons has ever been a team game issue anyway. As I said, don't expect to counter goons with artillery.

What would you make as otto against mass goons? I think of abus as a hybrid unit.
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

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Jans or CA. You're going to get outplayed anyway if game reaches that point simply because otto don't have skirms nor goons. Abus are not the answer. The answer is control the game and make the units that deal the best cost-wise.
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

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I agree with most of points presented by Garja. It maybe a design feature that Otto does not have a counter to goons. But there is also some things that you are missing out. Otto is designed as an aggro civ usually in 1v1 if they cant win upto 10-12 mins then they are lost for sure. The early early aggressive potential is their strength and having no late game eco and unit combo is their weakness. First of all, there aggro potential was nerfed by "Team Silk road card" wrt nilla , which is garbage on RE. Second, thing is EP maps which inherently eco games. So, the end result is that Otto's strength was reduced and given no compensation to their weakness.

If we didnt want to change how the design is then the question arises, who will decide that RE maps are bad? bcz they favor aggression and aggression is bad? And i wonder how someone though of giving sioux a better eco bcz they lack it, but isnt it a design thing that they are tweaking with.

I only come to this conclusion so far that, EP is biased towards one civ or another > Because the person involed with are players too. Maybe it is difficult to get rid of your personal fav which is understandably human nature.

And _Darwin proposed change is just a big nerf basically without compensation. Plz do the math.

What is the solution Garja bcz Otto in its current state is not playable especially team.
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

Post by saveyourskill »

I think all civs should have an option to deal with something by the other civ. It's the counter wheel. Otto should have something to at least trade well enough against goons imo.
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

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aqwer wrote:I agree with most of points presented by Garja. It maybe a design feature that Otto does not have a counter to goons. But there is also some things that you are missing out. Otto is designed as an aggro civ usually in 1v1 if they cant win upto 10-12 mins then they are lost for sure. The early early aggressive potential is their strength and having no late game eco and unit combo is their weakness. First of all, there aggro potential was nerfed by "Team Silk road card" wrt nilla , which is garbage on RE. Second, thing is EP maps which inherently eco games. So, the end result is that Otto's strength was reduced and given no compensation to their weakness.

If we didnt want to change how the design is then the question arises, who will decide that RE maps are bad? bcz they favor aggression and aggression is bad? And i wonder how someone though of giving sioux a better eco bcz they lack it, but isnt it a design thing that they are tweaking with.

I only come to this conclusion so far that, EP is biased towards one civ or another > Because the person involed with are players too. Maybe it is difficult to get rid of your personal fav which is understandably human nature.

And _Darwin proposed change is just a big nerf basically without compensation. Plz do the math.

What is the solution Garja bcz Otto in its current state is not playable especially team.

Well, don't forget Otto was one of top civs on RE so don't expect necessarily them to mantain he status quo on EP.
With that said, silk road is buffed on EP. Mosque and mosque techs are significantly buffed. As for what concern units, jan and abus changes should be reverted imo and abus damage nerfed because they are OP.
I don't even think Otto are not playable, especially in team where generic common sense play works with all civs (and otto received buffs).

saveyourskill wrote:I think all civs should have an option to deal with something by the other civ. It's the counter wheel. Otto should have something to at least trade well enough against goons imo.

Otto have jans, abus and CA all do well enough. The problem is just that otto lack mobility by design so you're going to get outplayed a bit.
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

Post by gamevideo113 »

I don't see where abus guns are any worse than skirms at countering goons. Am i missing something?
Also, i think Otto in team is way better on EP than on RE given the mosque buffs and TC price reduction. With 1600 wood you can get a mosque with all speed upgrades and 2 tcs, which brings the ottoman eco basically on par with the average civ eco. If otto had the same eco as brits they would be broken anyway in team games, so i don't see where the issue lies at the moment. Not to mention that on water maps ottomans are 100% fine with fish booming.
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

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I agree with Garja that Jan/Abus changes should be reverted to RE. But i disagree with the buff, the Mosque buff is just an excuse to nerf other units. It doesnt do much only in very long game, which if Otto reach somehow will mostly lose.
@Garja I am still looking for answer to my question. On one side you say that some civ design does not allow certain modification but it is being done for other civs. Why the exceptions?
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

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saveyourskill wrote:I think all civs should have an option to deal with something by the other civ. It's the counter wheel. Otto should have something to at least trade well enough against goons imo.

wow someone spoke sense?, but no theyd rather fuck up ottos counter system
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

Post by Kaiserklein »

Abus guns do really fine against goons tbh, then yeah the rof nerf can be a problem in that case, but it should anyway be reverted. Like garja said they're not really skirms so they're not supposed to fill the exact same role. And while every civ should have a chance to compete agaisnt what other civs do, it's really normal that the civs have weaknesses. Think about azzy not having a real cav, brits not having skirms, germany/china not having real goons nor musketeers, dutch not having any decent HI unit... I don't think it's shocking that otto has this slight weakness against goons considering what I listed.
And about team: it's impossible to balance both team and 1v1, and ep is a 1v1 patch. If you gave an extra multiplier to abus or jans against goons for team reasons, you might just see colonial abus jan cav being lame again in 1v1.
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

Post by Cometk »

have colonial abus have 3.5 rof, then veteran tech reverts it to 3s rof instead of giving them 20 range.

don't at all think it's impossible to balance team and 1v1 in the same patch. make the industrial upgrade give jans 1.2x to light cav? it doesn't need to be on the base stats
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

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Sorry but why are abus bad vs goons? Serious question
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

Post by deuxballesman »

Good question a pure goon comp is tough for otto to deal with but why did you let your opponent age though?
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

Post by Garja »

Let's perhaps clarify that pure goon doesn't beat pure jan, let alone jan-abus and let alone on EP where goons have only 20% rr. This should help to understand that in any straight up fight Otto are fine vs goons. Goons are a problem mostly because they are very mobile while Otto are terrible when it comes to mobility.

aqwer wrote:I agree with Garja that Jan/Abus changes should be reverted to RE. But i disagree with the buff, the Mosque buff is just an excuse to nerf other units. It doesnt do much only in very long game, which if Otto reach somehow will mostly lose.
@Garja I am still looking for answer to my question. On one side you say that some civ design does not allow certain modification but it is being done for other civs. Why the exceptions?

Err no. Mosque buff is actually very tangible. Not only it's 0.75xp for 100w but also all techs have halved cost. That makes quite a difference, especially in team.
I don't really know what your question is and why you're so tilted. Otto are not even that weak currently with all units nerfed.

Cometk wrote:have colonial abus have 3.5 rof, then veteran tech reverts it to 3s rof instead of giving them 20 range.

don't at all think it's impossible to balance team and 1v1 in the same patch. make the industrial upgrade give jans 1.2x to light cav? it doesn't need to be on the base stats

Eh so much unnecessary stuff. Just revert to RE stats.
I agree it's possible to balance 1v1 and team together, roughly. And mosque buff definitely moves in that direction.
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

Post by Darwin_ »

Cost-effectively, abus do actually quite good vs. goons.

Vet Abus damage: 48 * 0.75(multiplier vs. light cav) = 36 damage for around 230 vill seconds. Takes 7 shots to kill 1 dragoon, i.e. 24.5 seconds.
Efficiency: 0.156 damage/vill second.

Vet Skirms: (18 * 1.5 (multiplier vs. light cav)) * 0.8 (goon range resist) = 21.6 damage for around 170 vill seconds. Takes 12 shots to kill 1 dragoon, i.e. 36 seconds.
Efficiency: 0.127 damage/vill second.

As you can see, Abus guns are actually far more efficient than skirms vs. goons, as they have a higher damage output per vill second and faster time to kill. In the fortress age, their ranged HP is also exactly the same.
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

Post by aqwer »

@Garja:
My question is that you says that we can not change how a civ designed. You says Otto ought to have a weakness against cav, okay. But , Sioux also have to be a low eco civ. Why Sioux are getting eco boost from teepee, isnt it against basic design.
Secondly, mosque buff is not really that effective, when it clearly decrease the vil train time Otto already in losing position.
@Darwin_
You are also forgetting about pop cost,hp min shooting range, resist. Efficiency calculation is not that simple.
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Re: Abus gun readjusted stats

Post by Garja »

aqwer wrote:@Garja:
My question is that you says that we can not change how a civ designed. You says Otto ought to have a weakness against cav, okay. But , Sioux also have to be a low eco civ. Why Sioux are getting eco boost from teepee, isnt it against basic design.
Secondly, mosque buff is not really that effective, when it clearly decrease the vil train time Otto already in losing position.
@Darwin_
You are also forgetting about pop cost,hp min shooting range, resist. Efficiency calculation is not that simple.

It is against the civ basic design and it should be reverted. I'm not the one who makes the changes.
Mosque buff is quite big, I know that for sure because I also used it. For reference, try fast age up FF at 6.30 with 1k wood first for 2nd TC and mosque ups. Also normal stagecoach jan abus semi into 1k wood for extra TC and unit ups etc.
Also silk road card can be quite strong. With 400w you can do 3 TP stin age1 with 300w + silk road and proceed to get great eco with stagecoach. Can also go 300w+3v instead.
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