No Flag umeu
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08 May 2018, 10:25

[Armag] diarouga wrote:son why we have to refuse so many suggestions without even trying them, is because there's simply no more EP testing team, and such a change would have to be added without any testing, and thus unbalance the game for a while.


well thats the entire problem with ep to begin with, and it's why I was against it from the start. but implementing the changes and seeing how it works is the only way to test them. most ppl simply wont play on a beta. they just want to play.
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No Flag umeu
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08 May 2018, 10:28

zoom wrote:
umeu wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:Well, idk. Your suggestion is surely interesting but iro isn't even that bad in the first place. They might underperform on non-TP maps but it's the same for french/ger/ports/etc, so i don't think it's an issue that necessarily needs to be solved


They don't underperform on no tp, they are terrible, as diarouga said it. Ports and fre are totally fine on no tp maps, and ger indeed underperforms, which could be fixed by an xbow buff. If that doesnt work, it's possible to check out different changes.

It's funny that everyone who says it cant be balanced on both maptypes refuses to consider any changes that possibly achieve that. Ofc, that way your bias will confirm reality.
I think it can't be balanced on multiple map-types and I certainly don't refuse to consider changes that improve balance on all map-types. It is simply the case that the extent to which you can achieve balance on multiple map-types is, in general, limited. One who cannot understand these limitations, I think, is being biased.


K, you say you don't refuse to consider it, and then you don't consider it. Nice job! You say that the balance we can achieve on multiple map type is limited. Why? You don't explain it, you just state it. It's not been tried. It's not been tested. It's just an idea in your mind that you refuse to change. So, anyone who just sees limitations without actually testing the limits, I think, is being biased.

TL:DR: I say the opposite. Nice talking to you.
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08 May 2018, 11:09

umeu wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:son why we have to refuse so many suggestions without even trying them, is because there's simply no more EP testing team, and such a change would have to be added without any testing, and thus unbalance the game for a while.


well thats the entire problem with ep to begin with, and it's why I was against it from the start. but implementing the changes and seeing how it works is the only way to test them. most ppl simply wont play on a beta. they just want to play.

So you're arguing that we should implement your suggestion without any testing?
That doesn't make a lot of sense considering how you're criticizing the lack of testing.
In addition, you can't really blame the EP team for the lack of testing while, as far as I know, you haven't tested anything.
If you're motivated enough to test and provide recs showing that Iro won't be broken on TP maps with such a change, I'm sure the dev team can create a beta for you.

The lack of testing is the reason why we can't consider risky changes anymore, like the one you're suggesting honestly, it's not because we don't want to.
Until last year, I had enough time to play about 50 games on every beta (I still have the recs), but today there's literally 0 testing, so if something is op, it won't be figured out before the next tourney.
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Italy Garja
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08 May 2018, 11:25

Iro are fine on both map types at the moment.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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08 May 2018, 11:29

Garja wrote:Iro are fine on both map types at the moment.

Lol
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08 May 2018, 11:30

Lol what you dont even play the civ.
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08 May 2018, 11:31

Garja wrote:Lol what you dont even play the civ.

I do play the civ, you have no clue.
No Flag umeu
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08 May 2018, 11:35

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
umeu wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:son why we have to refuse so many suggestions without even trying them, is because there's simply no more EP testing team, and such a change would have to be added without any testing, and thus unbalance the game for a while.


well thats the entire problem with ep to begin with, and it's why I was against it from the start. but implementing the changes and seeing how it works is the only way to test them. most ppl simply wont play on a beta. they just want to play.

So you're arguing that we should implement your suggestion without any testing?
That doesn't make a lot of sense considering how you're criticizing the lack of testing.
In addition, you can't really blame the EP team for the lack of testing while, as far as I know, you haven't tested anything.
If you're motivated enough to test and provide recs showing that Iro won't be broken on TP maps with such a change, I'm sure the dev team can create a beta for you.

The lack of testing is the reason why we can't consider risky changes anymore, like the one you're suggesting honestly, it's not because we don't want to.
Until last year, I had enough time to play about 50 games on every beta (I still have the recs), but today there's literally 0 testing, so if something is op, it won't be figured out before the next tourney.


I'm not criticizing EP for lack of testing. It's a fact though, and it was very predictable. So the next best thing to testing a change before implementing is to implement it for a certain amount of time, and then gather feedback from players on the change. That's basically what EP has been doing now for a while. And it's the best next thing imo. Of course, optimally it should be timed so its implemented not just before a tournament.
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08 May 2018, 11:41

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:Lol what you dont even play the civ.

I do play the civ, you have no clue.

You have no clue, I'm playing it right now on no TP maps and they have lot of good options.
No Flag umeu
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08 May 2018, 11:43

k so after china vs brits you can play iro vs china on tp and no tp!
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08 May 2018, 11:45

Garja wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:Lol what you dont even play the civ.

I do play the civ, you have no clue.

You have no clue, I'm playing it right now on no TP maps and they have lot of good options.

You're the only one who believes that.
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08 May 2018, 11:47

1) I'm not, for the record.
2) It doesn't make any difference.
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08 May 2018, 12:19

1) Ok, who else think Iro aren't trash on no TP maps? @everyone

2) If 10 people think Iro is trash on no TP maps, and only one guy thinks they're not, statistically, there's 90% of chances of him being wrong.
And well, if on top of this it's garja, that's even closer to 100%.

The only good thing abour iro on no tp maps is that they have rams, and rams are op ;)
Venezuela Hazza54321
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08 May 2018, 12:21

if you spent half the playing rather than discussing maybe youd fine out ;)
Venividivici_w: i heard h20 signed up last minute. Prob waited for roby not signing up so he wouldnt get smashed again
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08 May 2018, 12:41

[Armag] diarouga wrote:1) Ok, who else think Iro aren't trash on no TP maps? @everyone

2) If 10 people think Iro is trash on no TP maps, and only one guy thinks they're not, statistically, there's 90% of chances of him being wrong.
And well, if on top of this it's garja, that's even closer to 100%.

The only good thing abour iro on no tp maps is that they have rams, and rams are op ;)


First of all, that's 11 people. So it's not 90%, you genius.
Second, I play more Iro than 10 people combined. So, statistically, there is high chance than my opinion is worth more than 10 clueless people.
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Netherlands momuuu
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08 May 2018, 12:51

Garja wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:1) Ok, who else think Iro aren't trash on no TP maps? @everyone

2) If 10 people think Iro is trash on no TP maps, and only one guy thinks they're not, statistically, there's 90% of chances of him being wrong.
And well, if on top of this it's garja, that's even closer to 100%.

The only good thing abour iro on no tp maps is that they have rams, and rams are op ;)


First of all, that's 11 people. So it's not 90%, you genius.
Second, I play more Iro than 10 people combined. So, statistically, there is high chance than my opinion is worth more than 10 clueless people.

Your record of being right is pretty low garja.

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"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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Italy Garja
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08 May 2018, 12:55

Did you keep track of it? So far it's basically my word against yours.
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08 May 2018, 12:59

umeu wrote:
zoom wrote:
Show hidden quotes
I think it can't be balanced on multiple map-types and I certainly don't refuse to consider changes that improve balance on all map-types. It is simply the case that the extent to which you can achieve balance on multiple map-types is, in general, limited. One who cannot understand these limitations, I think, is being biased.


K, you say you don't refuse to consider it, and then you don't consider it. Nice job! You say that the balance we can achieve on multiple map type is limited. Why? You don't explain it, you just state it. It's not been tried. It's not been tested. It's just an idea in your mind that you refuse to change. So, anyone who just sees limitations without actually testing the limits, I think, is being biased.

TL:DR: I say the opposite. Nice talking to you.
I do consider it; note how I said the extent is limited, not zero. So there goes your argument. As for the reason: Because civilization strength will unavoidably vary quite the deal depending on map-related factors. I did not state this because I've been over it so many times before, as have you, and I assumed you know. My mistake. Testing is not required to see that there are definitive limitations, again barring bias.
sudmakmak wrote:This patch Keshik don't have buff anti cavalry = noob patch2.0
and don't have nerf hard japan = noob patch2.0
because all more noob player at this patch = noob logic.
or they maybe have boyfriend.(japanese boyfriend fuck your ass them)
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08 May 2018, 13:05

Personally, I like the change to iro crate shipments, as the 400f, 200w/c shipment is now the same value of vill seconds as 600w. They probably need some other slight eco boost somewhere, like maybe a buff to the wise woman politician or maybe a cost reduction to farm techs.

I still maintain that giving russia an extra starting villager and removing a food crate would be good for balance, as long as 5 coss was nerfed to infinite 4 coss. I like russia and definitely think that they are stronger than public opinion would say, but they still seem a little weak. I think their early-mid game eco is very weak, and they don't have much to make up for it.

Globally, I think it would be interesting to buff the age 1 and age 2 gathering rate shipments (i.e. spice trade, furrier, exotic hardwoods, silversmith etc...), as I think it would add some fun variety and wouldn't screw with balance too much. Maybe increase Spice Trade (age 2 food), Silversmith (age 2 coin), and Exotic hardwoods (age 1 wood) from 20% to 25%, and Furrier (age 1 food) from 15% to 20%. It would give some fun options to Russia, Ports, and India.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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08 May 2018, 13:25

Garja wrote:Did you keep track of it? So far it's basically my word against yours.

I haven't but I will from now.
Still, here is what I can remember of:
1) Russia is tier 1
2) Rams are op
3) China colonial is good and can beat Brit's
4) Russia is op and rapes Germany, Aztecs and France on EP 1.0
5) Aztec FI is trash
6) Current EP Port is op
7) EP 1.0 Sioux were good
8) When playing water on the RE you should build one or two docks max, 3-4 is bad
9) Water is extremely good and viable as Aztecs, especially vs otto
10) bow/pike beats musk/huss

I'll stop here but could find a lot more.
No Flag sudmakmak
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08 May 2018, 13:30

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:Did you keep track of it? So far it's basically my word against yours.

I haven't but I will from now.
Still, here is what I can remember of:
1) Russia is tier 1
2) Rams are op
3) China colonial is good and can beat Brit's
4) Russia is op and rapes Germany, Aztecs and France on EP 1.0
5) Aztec FI is trash
6) Current EP Port is op
7) EP 1.0 Sioux were good
8) When playing water on the RE you should build one or two docks max, 3-4 is bad
9) Water is extremely good and viable as Aztecs, especially vs otto
10) bow/pike beats musk/huss

I'll stop here but could find a lot more.


He will play china age2 beat Brits age2(diarouga) ?? I think Diarouga win
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France [Armag] diarouga
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08 May 2018, 13:34

No, he dodged the showmatch because he knows he has no chance.
No Flag sudmakmak
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08 May 2018, 13:36

[Armag] diarouga wrote:No, he dodged the showmatch because he knows he has no chance.


LOL , Fear?
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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08 May 2018, 13:43

Guys can we reserve this thread for meaningful EP feedback please?
Whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
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Netherlands momuuu
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08 May 2018, 13:52

Goodspeed wrote:Guys can we reserve this thread for meaningful EP feedback please?

Tell that to garja. He has a pretty solid record of ruining serious aoe discussion with garjuments that make zero sense.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy

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