Fixing Dutch

[bobabu]

I think dutch is too good in teamgames atm. They are pretty balanced in 1vs1. Since they get very strong around the 15 min mark, my idea is to make their early game better while making their mid-late game worse. For this you could make the banks cheaper but lower the +20 percent cards. So their mid-late isn't that good anymore and their early is better (same).


Edit description !

[_DB_]

Dutch is now like Brits and Japan in team, they are like unbeatable. They need a nerf.

[bobabu]

Dutch is now like Brits and Japan in team, they are like unbeatable. They need a nerf.

so why don''t you vote yes

[_DB_]

Dutch is now like Brits and Japan in team, they are like unbeatable. They need a nerf.

so why dont you vote yes

Oh I just realised that I never voted yes haha

[deleted_user]

i think so dutch is probably one of top civ for teamgames atm but for 1v1 it should be ok too

[[Armag] diarouga]

They are a bit like japan or port atm. You can punish them early, that's their weakness. If you don't then yeah they'll get a crazy eco and spam as fuck in middle/late game.
Anyway, our balance changes aim to balance the 1v1, not the team (which btw, is impossible to balance).

[WickedCossack]

Early game they are still fine and vulnerable. It's just that they spiral out of control after 10-15 mins.

Something like putting the bank limit down to 5 and changing one of those 20% cards back to just +1 bank limit would be good I think.

[Hazza54321]

Early game they are still fine and vulnerable. It''s just that they spiral out of control after 10-15 mins.

Something like putting the bank limit down to 5 and changing one of those 20% cards back to just +1 bank limit would be good I think.

i agree mr jennings

[bobabu]

They are a bit like japan or port atm. You can punish them early, that''s their weakness. If you don''t then yeah they''ll get a crazy eco and spam as fuck in middle/late game.
Anyway, our balance changes aim to balance the 1v1, not the team (which btw, is impossible to balance).

I don''t think the patch will be successful if you completely ignore the team balance. I''m certain that you can change it without affecting their 1vs1 potential.

[[Armag] diarouga]

They are a bit like japan or port atm. You can punish them early, thats their weakness. If you dont then yeah theyll get a crazy eco and spam as fuck in middle/late game.
Anyway, our balance changes aim to balance the 1v1, not the team (which btw, is impossible to balance).

I dont think the patch will be successful if you completely ignore the team balance. Im certain that you can change it without affecting their 1vs1 potential.

If you have some ideas tell us

[bobabu]

I dont think the patch will be successful if you completely ignore the team balance. Im certain that you can change it without affecting their 1vs1 potential.

If you have some ideas tell us

I did in my first post. My idea is to make banks cheaper and make the +20 percent cards worse. Like that you get a better early game and a worse late game. And if dutch is too good early after this just put the normal gather rate down and raise the cards again.

[zoom]

This seems a bit premature a conclusion. Time will tell!

I assure you, we do not completely ignore team balance. We just don't prioritize or test it for practical reasons.

[momuuu]

I am not even sure dutch could be fixed for 1v1 without becoming too strong in team to be honest. Also, isnt the team balance pretty messed up anyways?

[Goodspeed]

October has been about the same as Sept, curious how Nov will turn out.

Before Sept it was steadily growing from when we started in March.

[momuuu]

October has been about the same as Sept, curious how Nov will turn out.

Before Sept it was steadily growing from when we started in March.

think you posted this in the wrong thread.

[Goodspeed]

Whoops.

[Garja]

Bank limit might need a bit of tuning.

[princeofcarthage]

How about you put dutch back to its original card state but instead of just increasing bank limit by 1 do something like bank +20% tbh 40% buff seems too much from sup balance of view it seemed fair for tr but thats different story or maybe keep bank limit but make those cards as age 4 card with 15 % buff and capitol up along with 2 banks gives 10% buff that might put dutch eco in ctrl mid game. all the 3v3 i played which lasted longer than 20 min dutch gave atleast 5k res to each player and after 25-30 min more than 10k per player, its just ridiculous considering brits also struggle to this prolly ger can tho. in 1 game where i played dutch i gave away 20k res till 28 min and we won it XD

[momuuu]

As much as I like the 6 bank build limit (or well idk if I even like it a lot but dutch kinda needs the buff I guess) I feel like its doing more harm than good. I think teamgames are of major importance to reach the entire community, and not just our own bubble of high level 1v1 players.

[Goodspeed]

Yeah Dutch becoming stronger in team was a known side effect of this change. I really don't think it's a problem though, many civs are too strong in teamgames and Dutch's weakness in late game makes up for their early strength somewhat.

If the team issue is fixable by moving the bank of rott/ams to age IV or nerfing them then I'd be open to it but I don't wanna touch the bank limit. I believe that's a very good change for 1v1 and want to see the effect it has on the meta first.

[mxcreaper]

So dutch have this age 2 card called Dutch east india company which nobody uses (banks are cheaper and stronger) and a card called tulip speculation which is an age 4 card that ups bank gather rates 15%. The 2 age 1 shipments got way too buffed imo.

If you want to balance it out better, I say spread the bank gather rate cards out among more cards. dont make 2 age 1 cards better than an age 4 card. Instead make each of them up gather rates by 10% make dutch east india company up rates by 10% in addition to what it does, and make tulip speculation 25% instead of 15%. those changes will still over all improve bank gather rates by 40% which is what the FP currently does, but it spreads them out, forces the player to make the decision of whether or not to run DEIC over another age 2 card (better eco vs w/e other age 2 options) and means the biggest eco boost won't happen until age 4 which should keep them balanced in team games while still offering an early game buff in 1v1.

[Goodspeed]

Would changing those cards fix the team issue?

In 1v1 they aren't viable but I can see that being different in team.
Tulip speculation should indeed be buffed but there are many cards that should be buffed and we wanted minimal changes. The age1 cards had to be changed either way, so we figured why not take the opportunity to make them at least somewhat viable?

That said I see your point and agree with it.

[zoom]

Early game they are still fine and vulnerable. It''s just that they spiral out of control after 10-15 mins.

Something like putting the bank limit down to 5 and changing one of those 20% cards back to just +1 bank limit would be good I think.

This is precisely what I would suggest if a change were desired:

?? Bank build-limit decreased from 6 to 5.
?? "Coffee Trade" unique Church improvement now simply increases Bank build limit by 1.
?? "Tulip Speculation" home-city shipment effect increased to 25%. Now also increases Bank build limit by 1.
?? "Bank of Amsterdam" home-city shipment now instead increases Bank build-limit by 1.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Early game they are still fine and vulnerable. Its just that they spiral out of control after 10-15 mins.

Something like putting the bank limit down to 5 and changing one of those 20% cards back to just +1 bank limit would be good I think.

This is precisely what I would suggest if a change were desired:

?? Bank build-limit decreased from 6 to 5.
?? "Coffee Trade" unique Church improvement now simply increases Bank build limit by 1.
?? "Tulip Speculation" home-city shipment effect increased to 25%. Now also increases Bank build limit by 1.
?? "Bank of Amsterdam" home-city shipment now instead increases Bank build-limit by 1.

What about bank of Rotterdam?

[yoqpasa]

What about starting bank limit 4, and cards giving 20% gathering rate + 1 bank limit? This way will make people use those cards bit earlier.