India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by _DB_ »

Okay. I played certain games of this MU on FP.

I concluded that Dutch beats India 55-45 now. It is just impossible to beat them in age 3, and not possible either to rush them. They are way too fast and too hard to beat.

What should you exactly do as India against Dutch in this MU on the FP?
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by Wuangaga »

That was the first matchup i played on the fanpatch. I stayed age 2 as India and tried to play eco heavy while pressuring his hunts. I think the key to winning this as India is to starve Dutch out while having a lot of Sowars and Gurkhas in your composition to get good trades against skirm/ruyters and trying to get a way with as little Zambs as possible. When dutch has to move out for mines or hunts you just take the fight there or get constant raids in to not let him gather.
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yeah dutch just win this MU on the fp.
What I try to do is a sepoy/sowar timing like 600w/600g/300e for brit consulate+6musk.
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by _DB_ »

diarouga wrote:Yeah dutch just win this MU on the fp.
What I try to do is a sepoy/sowar timing like 600w/600g/300e for brit consulate+6musk.
I doubt if timing will work. On FP dutch skirm semi is very fast that you eco + timing both. If you don''t go eco you just lose, and if you don''t go timing, you still lose lol. The situation is terrible.
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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

On the re I can punish a 10skirm/4banks semi. We're on the fp and you can expect people to overboom like 6banks semi and then the timing will work.
What's sure is that if you go semi ff or age2 boom you'll loose so the best way is ofc the timing.
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by _DB_ »

Alright. I'll try timings from next.
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by momuuu »

I think being very aggressive can work pretty nicely. Sepoy sowar timing sounds strong aswell. If they skirm pike semi, a gurka sowar timing might be even better.
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Nope coz gurkha die in 2 shot vs the TC and take a lot of damages from mm+no siege.
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by Jaeger »

diarouga wrote:Yeah dutch just win this MU on the fp.
What I try to do is a sepoy/sowar timing like 600w/600g/300e for brit consulate+6musk.
Jerome full walls lol so thenall your army is useless. And no he doesnt lose if he full walls, its only like 100- 200 wood then he can make even 6 banks if he wanted to
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

I've been using the 10/10 with 5 sepoy 4 sowar lately lol. Even though it's a "bad" strat, it still hits pretty quickly and with the wall nerf dutch has nothing going for them. Obviously you also have little to no economy but if you can force dutch to idle vills and get no more than 2 banks up I think you're in a fine position.
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Post by momuuu »

bramboy wrote:I''ve been using the 10/10 with 5 sepoy 4 sowar lately lol. Even though it''s a "bad" strat, it still hits pretty quickly and with the wall nerf dutch has nothing going for them. Obviously you also have little to no economy but if you can force dutch to idle vills and get no more than 2 banks up I think you''re in a fine position.
Id go 4 sowar 5 sepoy then personally.
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Post by Jaeger »

bramboy wrote:I''ve been using the 10/10 with 5 sepoy 4 sowar lately lol. Even though it''s a "bad" strat, it still hits pretty quickly and with the wall nerf dutch has nothing going for them. Obviously you also have little to no economy but if you can force dutch to idle vills and get no more than 2 banks up I think you''re in a fine position.
Dutch is fine vs 10/10 imo
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by fei123456 »

i dont think 70xp 110xp is a big difference. this mu won't change a lot in the fp.
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by edeholland »

How can you draw conclusions after 3 days, DB?
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by zoom »

edeholland wrote:How can you draw conclusions after 3 days, DB?
Let alone half a day of playing on the patch.
: S
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by _DB_ »

edeholland wrote:How can you draw conclusions after 3 days, DB?
Cuz it is not even controversial. There''s no way you win this MU easily as India.

The MU was pretty controversial on RE, because it was quite fair or India sided.
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Post by Garja »

Why do people always want a specific build for a specific MU. India is just a stronger civ than Dutch overall so just work on it a bit and find a strat that fits your game style.
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by momuuu »

garja wrote:Why do people always want a specific build for a specific MU. India is just a stronger civ than Dutch overall so just work on it a bit and find a strat that fits your game style.
This comment is next level.

I''m not even near your level of geniousness. Do we not need to use specific builds for specific mu''s anymore? I really have been doing everything wrong in my life.

Serious note: This topic should probably be in the strategy section, it isn''t really patch discussion imo, its just strategy discussion specifically concerning the strategy on the EP.
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by Garja »

jerom wrote:
garja wrote:Why do people always want a specific build for a specific MU. India is just a stronger civ than Dutch overall so just work on it a bit and find a strat that fits your game style.
This comment is next level.

Im not even near your level of geniousness. Do we not need to use specific builds for specific mus anymore? I really have been doing everything wrong in my life.

Serious note: This topic should probably be in the strategy section, it isnt really patch discussion imo, its just strategy discussion specifically concerning the strategy on the EP.

Please read my comment again and reflect.
When a civ is so much better than the other there are certainly different ways to win on the same theme. You can win with sepoy/sowar in colo, you can probably just start aggressive and then switch to gurka/sowar/anticav or you can even semi ff.

And yes, thinking strictly about BOs is a mistake. Its like thinking of chess in terms of openings only.
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by momuuu »

garja wrote:
jerom wrote:This comment is next level.

Im not even near your level of geniousness. Do we not need to use specific builds for specific mus anymore? I really have been doing everything wrong in my life.

Serious note: This topic should probably be in the strategy section, it isnt really patch discussion imo, its just strategy discussion specifically concerning the strategy on the EP.
Please read my comment again and reflect.
When a civ is so much better than the other there are certainly different ways to win on the same theme. You can win with sepoy/sowar in colo, you can probably just start aggressive and then switch to gurka/sowar/anticav or you can even semi ff.

And yes, thinking strictly about BOs is a mistake. Its like thinking of chess in terms of openings only.

Apart from builds, I disagree that india beats Dutch now. Theres specific builds by dutch that can completely annihilates india if india doesnt react and adapt properly, so if you are just going to find a style and stick to it, you are not going to get a good winrate against Dutch.
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by deuxballesman »

garja wrote:
jerom wrote:This comment is next level.?

Im not even near your level of geniousness. Do we not need to use specific builds for specific mus anymore? I really have been doing everything wrong in my life.

Serious note: This topic should probably be in the strategy section, it isnt really patch discussion imo, its just strategy discussion specifically concerning the strategy on the EP.
Please read my comment again and reflect.
When a civ is so much better than the other there are certainly different ways to win on the same theme. You can win with sepoy/sowar in colo, you can probably just start aggressive and then switch to gurka/sowar/anticav or you can even semi ff.

And yes, thinking strictly about BOs is a mistake. Its like thinking of chess in terms of openings only.



Side note:
Chess is mainly about openings unfortunately. Lots of masters are just opening machines playing the poisened pawn variation of the Najdorf Sicilian.
Apart from that I think you make a good point by saying "stricly speaking about BOs is a mistake". Most of the 2k-2.2k ,myself included, should remember that
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

But we should think with build orders lol.
That's like when you said that sioux without abusable mechanics isn't a strong civs, well, true, but sioux use those abusable mechs so they're op.
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by _DB_ »

garja wrote:Why do people always want a specific build for a specific MU. India is just a stronger civ than Dutch overall so just work on it a bit and find a strat that fits your game style.
It makes more sense to play the best way to play a match up rather than to find a strat that fit your game style.

Kynesie waterboom builds, Black_XIII_T/spider_xiande Japan, Nayuki 20 Lil bombard Dutch FI, piroshiki FF, setugen port FI are strategies that fit their respective players'' style, but they aren''t the best ways to play vs one or all civs.

All I want to say is that why try something imperfect if you can try something perfect, i.e. you can play the best way to win rather than making your victory harder by doing something else.

India is better civ than Dutch overall. I agree. Still India don''t beat Dutch (On EP im sure they really don''t), because Dutch is one of the fair MU to India.

I tested out different timings vs my friend. A TP while aging, market ups, 600w/600g/300e(into otto hussars, late vils)/5 sepoys pretty much worked, as diarrhea told. This worked pretty nicely vs Germany and China too.
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by momuuu »

600w 600g 300e 5 sepoy would hit too late. Dutch is up after like the third shipment.
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India vs Dutch on ESOC FP

Post by Garja »

subzero wrote:
garja wrote:Why do people always want a specific build for a specific MU. India is just a stronger civ than Dutch overall so just work on it a bit and find a strat that fits your game style.
It makes more sense to play the best way to play a match up rather than to find a strat that fit your game style.

Kynesie waterboom builds, Black_XIII_T/spider_xiande Japan, Nayuki 20 Lil bombard Dutch FI, piroshiki FF, setugen port FI are strategies that fit their respective players style, but they arent the best ways to play vs one or all civs.

All I want to say is that why try something imperfect if you can try something perfect, i.e. you can play the best way to win rather than making your victory harder by doing something else.

India is better civ than Dutch overall. I agree. Still India dont beat Dutch (On EP im sure they really dont), because Dutch is one of the fair MU to India.

I tested out different timings vs my friend. A TP while aging, market ups, 600w/600g/300e(into otto hussars, late vils)/5 sepoys pretty much worked, as diarrhea told. This worked pretty nicely vs Germany and China too.
Im talking about MUs that can be won in more than one way. Certain strategies that are considered the best are not accessible for all level of play.
Also I was focusing on the need to understand the general ideas behind a civ/strat rather than copying a build blindly.
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