Should russia get a buff?

[Hazza54321]

How do you have 5 musk 5 cossack out when your opponent has 10 huss.

You must truly suck at this game then.

sometimes russias upping the tp route or getting st and a batch of vills and great coats

[zoom]

Hence the term: "5 Cossacks".

5 Cossack are gonna be out of the picture raiding so Russia first 5 musk are just gonna die. Even if you bring back five Cossack when your next 5 musk pop 10 hussar or 13 uhlan still way better then 5 musk 5 Cossack

If you are raiding with your 5 Cossacks when you need to be using them to counter cavalry early I can see why you would think Russians are weaker to cavalry early on than they actually are...

[deleted_user0]

[span style="font-size:12pt'"]However, if you go with a more economic build ( market with hunting dogs, placer mines, and possibly gang saw in transition along with a blockhouse) its just not possible to have enough resources to que up a batch of vils as well as a batch of musks. [/span]

Im not sure why you assume that should be possible. If you go for a super economical build, its fairly common that you have to choose to delay eco or army for a little bit. For example, Mitoe adds a market early when he does dutch, this is pretty greedy, and in order to pull it off, he delays making huss in his stable for a little bit. IF you want to do market and tp as french, it means you can no longer get musk and huss out. As germans it means you will have to delay steeltraps for a little bit. ETC ETC. It is very normal that if you want to play that greedy as russia, that you will have to delay making musk or starting your vil batch for like 15 seconds. Im not sure why you are complaining about that, its like that for pretty much every civ. For russia it doesnt even matter so much, because you have your blockhouse ready upon aging up, which means that unlike most civs, you can start training asap, while other civs still have to collect the wood and build the rax/building before they can make stuff.

They just have a subpar eco in early colonial, partially due to batched vils. While having batched vils is better in the long run, short term you end of loosing a lot of vil seconds vs a civ that creates one vil at a time. Having batched infantry also means that even though their musk are cheaper and train faster than standard musk, a musk civ like brit can get out the same amount of musk if not more than a standard civ. Strelets are even worse. You need roughly 500 resources just to start a batch. Its not that you cant que a batch of musk and a batch of vils right when you age, its that batch units and no vil shipments come together to equal a rather shit eco in early colonial.

not sure why you are complaining about this again, because its inherent to their civ design. Their eco isnt even that weak, because they can easily keep up the needed military production and vil production with that eco to compete with civs which have a far better eco, such as french and brits. It is actually civs which have a comparable weak early eco, but a far superior military to russia that easily beat them, such as otto, iro, india and sioux.

Russia offsets this disadvantage by sneaking in eco cards or upgrade cards and by having a good defensive position with 2 towers that also train units and having cost effective fast training units which make it hard to break a defensive position even for civs which are ahead in age and tech. Russia is one of the civs which can "punch above their weight" as obama would say, and thats what makes it a unique civ and fun to play.

[deleted_user0]

the fact that you say that means you are clueless about russia. and its not just strelet cossack, but strelet cossack + 15-20 musk. but actually, when you have both upgrades on your cossack, you can basically just strelet cossack vs most comps.

and russia actually has a pretty good semi, which means in fortress they can access strelet cav archer with some cossack. which is very hard to beat, specially if they have kalmuck and manchu to strengthen the ranks.

U still have the nerve to say that after all of the times I raped u with Russia? I guess some people just dont learn. Maybe thats why theyre still at or 35

lol, i dont care that you beat me in some meaningless qs games, if you did, i have no idea who you are. but you are still wrong, no matter if you beat me a 1000 times more.

[gibson]

@umeu you completely missed my point. Other civs can play more economically without delaying military because they can just spend 100 resources to que up one musket, and then finish off the batch 25 seconds later. This isn't the case for Russia, as they gave to spend 350 or 475 just to que up a batch of infantry. Also batched villagers result in losing like 40 vil seconds per batch when compared to a standard vil civ.

@jerom @zoom well if you send 5 Cossack first and you don't use it to raid and you don't push it was a completely wasted shipment. You can't just hold them back indefinitely because you're scared of being attacked. And yes Jerom, China is weak towards cav, particularly colonial China. Colonial China can also be beaten by like90% cav and a few musks because they don't have an option to create 100% anti cav (keshik don't count as anti cav because they aren't even cost efficient vs cav)

[Garja]

Batched villagers train faster and cost less, they don't make you lose any vills second becase those 2 advantage more than compensate the batching.

[gibson]

Batched villagers train faster and cost less, they don''t make you lose any vills second becase those 2 advantage more than compensate the batching.

It pays off in the long term but in the short term(up until your batch of 3 vils pops) you invested 270 resources into nothing while a standard civ has had 1 vil working away for 30 seconds and another vil working away for 10 seconds.

[deleted_user0]

@umeu you completely missed my point. Other civs can play more economically without delaying military because they can just spend 100 resources to que up one musket, and then finish off the batch 25 seconds later. This isn''t the case for Russia, as they gave to spend 350 or 475 just to que up a batch of infantry. Also batched villagers result in losing like 70 vil seconds per batch when compared to a standard vil civ.

I am not missing your point, This is part of russia''s design, and the design itself isnt unbalanced. russia offsets not being able to queu a unit by having faster training time and cheaper units which are cost effective and by having your infrastructure ready upon aging. So even though you start your batch later, you will have it out faster.


As russia you can easily do an early market if you have anything but pure 100w start, you can get your steeltraps with the 400w from aging up after you queued your units. I see what you are saying, but you are focusing on the wrong things, you are pointing out at weaknesses which are inherent to their civ design, but offset by the strength of their civ design, while you should be looking at weaknesses which are against their civ design.

[gibson]

I am not missing your point, This is part of russias design, and the design itself isnt unbalanced. russia offsets not being able to queu a unit by having faster training time and cheaper units which are cost effective and by having your infrastructure ready upon aging. So even though you start your batch later, you will have it out faster.


As russia you can easily do an early market if you have anything but pure 100w start, you can get your steeltraps with the 400w from aging up after you queued your units. I see what you are saying, but you are focusing on the wrong things, you are pointing out at weaknesses which are inherent to their civ design, but offset by the strength of their civ design, while you should be looking at weaknesses which are against their civ design.

So what would you say that the weakness of Russia, if any, is? No sarcasm intended, I think its actually great that youre ingaging in discussion with a lower level player.

[momuuu]

@gibson two things are wrong with your reasoning

a) When 5 huss are out you cant even raid with cossack anyways. Thats way too risky since you do get annihilated. You need to have musk close for back up. And therefor, your cossacks have to be close to your musk.
b) You can still raid, 5 cossacks arrive quite a bit earlier than 5 hussars, so you could do some damage, not that you actually can do a lot of damage vs good players. You dont even have to do a lot of damage. You shipped 750 resources, thats never a waste. The only economic shipment you could go for is 700w but you dont need that as first shipment anyways.

Imo russias early game isnt too weak at all. They are kinda weak at around the timing at which you are supposed to punish semi ffs, and since they basically cant take the fight to fortress they have to try to punish it. Thats why I think strelet range could use a small boost in fortress, so that they become slightly more competitive in fortress wars.

[Garja]

If Russia were not able to punish semi ffs then brits wouldn't be either. Both can deal with semi ffs jsut fine.

[fei123456]

If Russia were not able to punish semi ffs then brits wouldn''t be either. Both can deal with semi ffs jsut fine.

nope. brit eco is faaaaaaaaarrrrr better than russia. and they can semiff too. longbow ? strelet against dragoons.

[gibson]

@gibson two things are wrong with your reasoning

a) When 5 huss are out you cant even raid with cossack anyways. Thats way too risky since you do get annihilated. You need to have musk close for back up. And therefor, your cossacks have to be close to your musk.
b) You can still raid, 5 cossacks arrive quite a bit earlier than 5 hussars, so you could do some damage, not that you actually can do a lot of damage vs good players. You dont even have to do a lot of damage. You shipped 750 resources, thats never a waste. The only economic shipment you could go for is 700w but you dont need that as first shipment anyways.

Imo russias early game isnt too weak at all. They are kinda weak at around the timing at which you are supposed to punish semi ffs, and since they basically cant take the fight to fortress they have to try to punish it. Thats why I think strelet range could use a small boost in fortress, so that they become slightly more competitive in fortress wars.

well point b is definitly valid, 5 Cossack can arrive upwards of 40 seconds earlier than the first batch of huss. You can still raid with 5 Cossack even if the other guy has 5 huss on the field. If you do get caught, which shouldn''t happen if you are paying attention to your cav, than you loose 1 Cossack, which imo shouldn''t be game breaking even at the top tier. I don''t think you''ve ever really played Russia, because the 8-10 minute mark is when they really start to ramp up. And no, as Russia you can''t fight skirm goon falc in age 2. You absolutely have to go age 3 or you just basically loose.

[deleted_user0]

I am not missing your point, This is part of russias design, and the design itself isnt unbalanced. russia offsets not being able to queu a unit by having faster training time and cheaper units which are cost effective and by having your infrastructure ready upon aging. So even though you start your batch later, you will have it out faster.


As russia you can easily do an early market if you have anything but pure 100w start, you can get your steeltraps with the 400w from aging up after you queued your units. I see what you are saying, but you are focusing on the wrong things, you are pointing out at weaknesses which are inherent to their civ design, but offset by the strength of their civ design, while you should be looking at weaknesses which are against their civ design.

So what would you say that the weakness of Russia, if any, is? No sarcasm intended, I think its actually great that youre ingaging in discussion with a lower level player.

i find it hard to say what russias weakness is beyond the obvious that they have weaker units and thus need to keep their mass up. I think many russia players commit too much to the early agression and then cant remass enough when it fails. I feel like russia has to throw the first punch, do as much damage with that punch and then retreat to a defensive position. This works good vs civs that have to commit to a longer colonial, or on maps where you can easily starve your opponent (hence why russia is much stronger on RE maps than on FP maps). The weakness of retreating to a defensive position is that it can get punished by a an semi or FF which hasnt taken alot of damage and hits with alot of siege before russia has been properly got going. If the semi hits when russia has sent 1 eco card and boyars and has got a decent mass of cossack out, or has aged up itself, then they are in a good position to hold, or delay, which is something I dont see people, including myself, do enough. Russia has good defenses, so exploit this, by going for counter attacks instead of fighting the enemy army head on. Darwin, heroes but also goongoon, aizamk and spider (with other civs) do this very good. They know they cant win the head on engagement, so they are going to be annoying elsewhere on the map, in such a way that you cant ignore it. And every second you lose trying to catch them, they are catching up with you or getting further ahead.

I think perhaps something to look into is to giving the core of the russian composition slightly more siege. Because their siege unit atm is the musketeer, but they are also the weakest link in their colonial composition. Another thing could be to give russia the option to always early market, which i suggested by giving them +100c. Another thing is to make their semi ff slightly more viable by changing their church card from 1000w for 9 kalmucks to 1000c or 1250f. I feel like theres a thin line between russia being very weak, and being very strong.

[Garja]

If Russia were not able to punish semi ffs then brits wouldnt be either. Both can deal with semi ffs jsut fine.

nope. brit eco is faaaaaaaaarrrrr better than russia. and they can semiff too. longbow ? strelet against dragoons.

As far as it concerns spamming units, brit eco is not better than the russia one. Russia can also semi better than brits for obvious reasons.

[fei123456]

nope. brit eco is faaaaaaaaarrrrr better than russia. and they can semiff too. longbow ? strelet against dragoons.

As far as it concerns spamming units, brit eco is not better than the russia one. Russia can also semi better than brits for obvious reasons.

yeah they semiff but then? longbow beats skirm and kills war wagonand dragoon easily. strelet lose to skirm and cant aim war wagon at all due to their range. hussar = uhlan. cossack lose to uhan (semiff wont send boyar and cossack without boyar sux).

[zoom]

@umeu you completely missed my point. Other civs can play more economically without delaying military because they can just spend 100 resources to que up one musket, and then finish off the batch 25 seconds later. This isn''t the case for Russia, as they gave to spend 350 or 475 just to que up a batch of infantry. Also batched villagers result in losing like 40 vil seconds per batch when compared to a standard vil civ.

@jerom @zoom well if you send 5 Cossack first and you don''t use it to raid and you don''t push it was a completely wasted shipment. You can''t just hold them back indefinitely because you''re scared of being attacked. And yes Jerom, China is weak towards cav, particularly colonial China. Colonial China can also be beaten by like90% cav and a few musks because they don''t have an option to create 100% anti cav (keshik don''t count as anti cav because they aren''t even cost efficient vs cav)

How is it a wasted shipment if it''s the only thing ensuring you don''t lose the game straight away??

[deuxballesman]

I tend to agree with umeu here Russia are under average but even a slight buff might suffise to make them OP.

Something like +100g starting crate would definitely help in early colonial by having already a market going since discovery. That would probably be enough to cause damage without totally sacrifing the eco and dying to all the semi-ff in the world and as semi-ff are more than frequent in the new meta it makes russia a tad UP.

[Garja]

As far as it concerns spamming units, brit eco is not better than the russia one. Russia can also semi better than brits for obvious reasons.

yeah they semiff but then? longbow beats skirm and kills war wagonand dragoon easily. strelet lose to skirm and cant aim war wagon at all due to their range. hussar = uhlan. cossack lose to uhan (semiff wont send boyar and cossack without boyar sux).

Strelets beat skirms and cossack are better than ulhans. Its likely tho that Germans will have shit tons of units because their semi ff is too good.

[gibson]

@umeu you completely missed my point. Other civs can play more economically without delaying military because they can just spend 100 resources to que up one musket, and then finish off the batch 25 seconds later. This isnt the case for Russia, as they gave to spend 350 or 475 just to que up a batch of infantry. Also batched villagers result in losing like 40 vil seconds per batch when compared to a standard vil civ.

@jerom @zoom well if you send 5 Cossack first and you dont use it to raid and you dont push it was a completely wasted shipment. You cant just hold them back indefinitely because youre scared of being attacked. And yes Jerom, China is weak towards cav, particularly colonial China. Colonial China can also be beaten by like90% cav and a few musks because they dont have an option to create 100% anti cav (keshik dont count as anti cav because they arent even cost efficient vs cav)

How is it a wasted shipment if its the only thing ensuring you dont lose the game straight away??

because when have you ever played as Russia and had someone go 100% cav against you? This is all completely hypothetical, as no one goes 100% cav.

[zoom]

Virtually every single time for the first few minutes. Any good player with opens pure cavalry against Russians with the majority of civilizations In the odd case your opponent isn't opening with cavalry you can raid and it's not a wasted shipment either.

You are just so far off logic here it's remarkable...

[gibson]

Virtually every single time for the first few minutes. Any good player with opens pure cavalry against Russians with the majority of civilizations In the odd case your opponent isn''t opening with cavalry you can raid and it''s not a wasted shipment either.

You are just so far off logic here it''s remarkable...

I''m just saying you can''t know what your opponent is doing and If you don''t raid with Cossack and your opponent doesn''t push and the Cossack are just standing there a wasted shipment and you should have started crates and send Cossack for timing.

[deleted_user0]

eh u can scout

[Hazza54321]

maybe considering a fixed 200w start so russia as the option to go market rather than coin start

[gibson]

maybe considering a fixed 200w start so russia as the option to go market rather than coin start

or start tp