Japan nerf?

[aoefan4life]

I joined a game on the EP and I chose Japan because I thought all civs were balanced and fair and now reasonable to use. Few seconds later the host says "no Japan". Should ashi get lower amounts of speed or was this just bad feelings of Japan that accumulated over the years and Japan is actually OK on the EP?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Japan is a normal civ, over rated because it used to be op before the nerf and because noobs don t play well against this civ.
I said that 100 times but they loose to china, azzy, otto, dutch, german, russia and have hard time vs india, sioux, fre, iro, brit (like 55-45 for jap).
How is it unbalanced? On the ep every civs can beat japan.

[Marco1698]

Japan is a normal civ, over rated because it used to be op before the nerf and because noobs don t play well against this civ.
I said that 100 times but they loose to china, azzy, otto, dutch, german, russia and have hard time vs india, sioux, fre, iro, brit (like 55-45 for jap).
How is it unbalanced? On the ep every civs can beat japan.

Exactly. I play japan and can agree for sure here. When people don't know how to counter this civ, they just say : it's op

[irr3alist]

I disagree vehemently.
It is extremely overpowered in team games.
It is often necessary for me to mirror that civ and at times I can exactly match the army of good players but still through team dynamics lose it, simply because the age 4 and age 5 ashis are too powerful. There was one game in which we destroyed opti but he went age 5 and we basically had to resign. From then on I realised I must always mirror a japan player.

Also as brit u need 4 cards to slightly come close to the HP of a simple age 4 ashi and once u drop ronin or hatamotos in the mix its usually won.
So the speed nerf... well I guess they dont come raiding anymore so fast but the daimyos still do their thing and the att and HP are still the same.

[purplesquid]

In team games they are redicuously op. 1v1 not so much

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yeah I agree, they are op in team games, but the goal of this patch is to balance the 1v1, team isn't balanced anyway.

[Marco1698]

1v1 ftw

[r4go]

Yeah I agree, they are op in team games, but the goal of this patch is to balance the 1v1, team isn't balanced anyway.

that's right, tad's team sucks (that's why the hardest( in sense whit op players) team was in nilla and good team players played always nilla for team, 2008-09 era xD), too much unbalanced, and is pretty impossible to resolve it, jap is the best team civ, in 10-15 minutes you can win a 3v3 alone for the 80%, in 2v2 you must go jap mirror, also china, all think is noob in team, fools, in age 4 china can't be stopped, but it's good in early game too, india is very op in team, just loses a bit in late game (age4) vs others civ. And tad team often goes late becouse of civs and the style's game.
Diarouga why other good player/pro think jap is very op?? can your russia, azzy china, india beat Kyenise's jap?? not on the EP on eso map, i mean in standard map, re patch, becouse for me jap on EP and ESO map is a normal civ ofc. I'm just asking to improve myself, and if you can post some recs how to beat a op jap we will love you.

[thebritish]

Yeah I agree, they are op in team games, but the goal of this patch is to balance the 1v1, team isn't balanced anyway.

that's right, tad's team sucks (that's why the hardest( in sense whit op players) team was in nilla and good team players played always nilla for team, 2008-09 era xD), too much unbalanced, and is pretty impossible to resolve it, jap is the best team civ, in 10-15 minutes you can win a 3v3 alone for the 80%, in 2v2 you must go jap mirror, also china, all think is noob in team, fools, in age 4 china can't be stopped, but it's good in early game too, india is very op in team, just loses a bit in late game (age4) vs others civ. And tad team often goes late becouse of civs and the style's game.
Diarouga why other good player/pro think jap is very op?? can your russia, azzy china, india beat Kyenise's jap?? not on the EP on eso map, i mean in standard map, re patch, becouse for me jap on EP and ESO map is a normal civ ofc. I'm just asking to improve myself, and if you can post some recs how to beat a op jap we will love you.

I dont really know how to counter japan, but i think you should go french xbow-pike semi-ff or pike semiff.
Manor boom with brits, but you need to get both of his explorers killed while killing shrines on the map and be very agressive.
Or FI with china or Germany

[gibson]

Japan isn't really that op in team games either, on EP, properly player dutch, port, russia, aztec, india, and brit will all have similar ecos to japan later in the game. Japan is just insanely easy to play. Bc of cherry orchard you never have to gather food outside your base, don't have to worry about being raided, and basically just spam shrines on hunts. Ashi really aren't that op either. Cost effectively they are similar to standard musk and probably worse than sepoy and jans. Their speed with the golden pavilion is insane though......

[thebritish]

ashi's with golden pavilion become Op because you cant kite them

[Marco1698]

Japan doesn't deserve to be nerfed/buffed, it's ok.

@Gibson
Japan is not insanely easy to play, the contrary, it's very hard to play, i agree with you, meaning jap doesn't have to macro since it has got the resources next to his tc, but still very hard to use, since if you aren't able to defend yourself in early game, you will be beated by any good aggressive push, all in rushes etc.

Japan is not good op on eso maps definitevely, because the objective for a jap player is stealing the map and don't let opponent taking map control. On garja's maps you can't do that, because the other player has got all resources he needs into his base, and he gathers without any problems until 10-15 min at least.
People just don't know how to play vs japs, so they won't admit they sux, because the reality is that jap has got the weakness of early game and almost of the time it can't survive to rush all. That's the main reason it's a civ well used by pro players. Japan has got probably the best late game, but you have to suffer a lot before to reach it. Of course, if you let me booming without any pressure, i will have a nice score and nice mass of units, (jap units are very good actually). Furthermore, since wall are nerfed, japan can't be so op as any noob says. There are some civs who can beat jap without any problems, i mean civs as otto-iro-azzy, indian (on Re patch) and civs who don't win but still makes an hard time, probably they could take the victory if japs do many mistakes (Fp= dutch-otto-brits-indian-azzy). Not sure about sioux etc, so i don't make them in my personal list. Btw, gold pavillon doesn't give an op speed, only 0.25 speed more if I am not wrong

[r4go]

Japan isn't really that op in team games either, on EP, properly player dutch, port, russia, aztec, india, and brit will all have similar ecos to japan later in the game. Japan is just insanely easy to play. Bc of cherry orchard you never have to gather food outside your base, don't have to worry about being raided, and basically just spam shrines on hunts. Ashi really aren't that op either. Cost effectively they are similar to standard musk and probably worse than sepoy and jans. Their speed with the golden pavilion is insane though......

2, all wrong

[gibson]

@marco I'm talking about team games, where all in rushes almost never work because defender has a huge advantage. In team games, Japan is insanely easy to play. In 1x1 they are quite a bit harder because most civs like to pressure them early.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yeah I agree, they are op in team games, but the goal of this patch is to balance the 1v1, team isn't balanced anyway.

that's right, tad's team sucks (that's why the hardest( in sense whit op players) team was in nilla and good team players played always nilla for team, 2008-09 era xD), too much unbalanced, and is pretty impossible to resolve it, jap is the best team civ, in 10-15 minutes you can win a 3v3 alone for the 80%, in 2v2 you must go jap mirror, also china, all think is noob in team, fools, in age 4 china can't be stopped, but it's good in early game too, india is very op in team, just loses a bit in late game (age4) vs others civ. And tad team often goes late becouse of civs and the style's game.
Diarouga why other good player/pro think jap is very op?? can your russia, azzy china, india beat Kyenise's jap?? not on the EP on eso map, i mean in standard map, re patch, becouse for me jap on EP and ESO map is a normal civ ofc. I'm just asking to improve myself, and if you can post some recs how to beat a op jap we will love you.

I think I could beat him with russia but anyway, he knows very well how to hold a rush with walls, cm and I don't have much experience in this mu as russia. Darwin won every games he played vs kynesie on land map.
As azzy I often loose vs japan because I don't have the right timings but garja used to win every games vs kynesie in this mu.
As China, idk but this mu is rather close even if china favoured, pistolero won kynesie's jap in the asc with a suboptimal build. And as india I just loose I think since it is 55-45 for japan.

[fingolfin]

Yhea but farran344when he was grunt probably had 77 streak with japan even darwin couldnt beat him with russia http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... lent=&ft=1

[r4go]

Yeah I agree, they are op in team games, but the goal of this patch is to balance the 1v1, team isn't balanced anyway.

that's right, tad's team sucks (that's why the hardest( in sense whit op players) team was in nilla and good team players played always nilla for team, 2008-09 era xD), too much unbalanced, and is pretty impossible to resolve it, jap is the best team civ, in 10-15 minutes you can win a 3v3 alone for the 80%, in 2v2 you must go jap mirror, also china, all think is noob in team, fools, in age 4 china can't be stopped, but it's good in early game too, india is very op in team, just loses a bit in late game (age4) vs others civ. And tad team often goes late becouse of civs and the style's game.
Diarouga why other good player/pro think jap is very op?? can your russia, azzy china, india beat Kyenise's jap?? not on the EP on eso map, i mean in standard map, re patch, becouse for me jap on EP and ESO map is a normal civ ofc. I'm just asking to improve myself, and if you can post some recs how to beat a op jap we will love you.

I think I could beat him with russia but anyway, he knows very well how to hold a rush with walls, cm and I don't have much experience in this mu as russia. Darwin won every games he played vs kynesie on land map.
As azzy I often loose vs japan because I don't have the right timings but garja used to win every games vs kynesie in this mu.
As China, idk but this mu is rather close even if china favoured, pistolero won kynesie's jap in the asc with a suboptimal build. And as india I just loose I think since it is 55-45 for japan.

Umhhh but here we can say you don't know the opposited side vs your jap, as russia for example you are not expert so you can't know what is hard vs jap if you are russia...well you cited darwin, his skills are >>>>> kyenise...is like i go jap and you porto, you will own me, but jap vs porto is 95% jap's victory. A guy wrote a post here about farran, and he's right. The problem i think is that we need two pro that are near to be = skills and test this Mu. But this is my opinion i play russia a lot in1-1 and some unrated game whit jap, where i use them bad. What i notice, on eso map i can win easy vs jap whit russia, in standard no, becouse i've less hunts and while i'm pressing hunts finish, so i finish my gas in my tank xD...this is what happen always...on eso i've 3-4 hunts, no problem from shirnes so i can spamm press easy. What do you think about it??

[r4go]

Yhea but farran344when he was grunt probably had 77 streak with japan even darwin couldnt beat him with russia http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... lent=&ft=1

Right, in my opinion, here nobody now how jap are on normal tad in standard map, but i don't have a close mind, so i want ask and test it

[[Armag] diarouga]

Darwin won grunt on high plains, the games you're talking abouy were on deccan where japan is really strong and on cali, a no food map.
If the russia guy is no food, japan might win but on the fp this is just not true.

Japan can't beat the strel rush, if you think japan>russia, then tell me how you hold it as jap?

[Hazza54321]

Darwin won grunt on high plains, the games you're talking abouy were on deccan where japan is really strong and on cali, a no food map.
If the russia guy is no food, japan might win but on the fp this is just not true.

Japan can't beat the strel rush, if you think japan>russia, then tell me how you hold it as jap?

walls/nagi beats strelet RUSH

[KINGofOsmane]

Darwin won grunt on high plains, the games you're talking abouy were on deccan where japan is really strong and on cali, a no food map.
If the russia guy is no food, japan might win but on the fp this is just not true.

Japan can't beat the strel rush, if you think japan>russia, then tell me how you hold it as jap?

walls/nagi beats strelet RUSH

dats what kingi is doing

[[Armag] diarouga]

Darwin won grunt on high plains, the games you're talking abouy were on deccan where japan is really strong and on cali, a no food map.
If the russia guy is no food, japan might win but on the fp this is just not true.

Japan can't beat the strel rush, if you think japan>russia, then tell me how you hold it as jap?

walls/nagi beats strelet RUSH

Kynesie does it and 1000 hp walls don't.

[r4go]

Darwin won grunt on high plains, the games you're talking abouy were on deccan where japan is really strong and on cali, a no food map.
If the russia guy is no food, japan might win but on the fp this is just not true.

Japan can't beat the strel rush, if you think japan>russia, then tell me how you hold it as jap?

walls/nagi beats strelet RUSH

Kynesie does it and 1000 hp walls don't.

on fp no, russia >> jap ofc, on normal tad, wall/yumi wall/nagi work very good vs stre rush. The game you means was in Great plains i suppose, and grunt wasn't him for sure, guys supposed was him, whit monkey ( don't remeber well the name).
But i'm not supposing russia wins or jap wins, this is my idea, but ofc i'm not good 1v1, even if my idea is ofc influenced by old pro, and in age alive and competitive. What i need Diarouga is games how russia >> jap, not only whit the all in stre rush, which it could be hold. For example, vs a jap that wall 3-4, what i can do as russia?? boom him?? outboom jap whit russia for me is not so easy. I'm not pretending to tell you or others jap >> russia becouse i've played age when pro was in and all told me jap >>>. I'm asking some recs to know what to do has russia in different situation . Can you do somes recs?? or tell us some good recs showing russia wins vs jap?? becouse it's possible you are right, guys don't know how to play vs jap. The only good rec russia vs jap i've found is the one you cited about darwin

[Hagi]

I'd like to see some recent games as well.
The past told us that sending 600c (for naginata) + 5 ashi card + irregulars simply stop the rush for good.
But Diarouga said it's not enough, so I would like to see why, as well

I find that Yumi behind walls is not the best strategy vs Russia. You waste a lot of wood and vill seconds (not to mention the explorer can step on wall foundations and give you trouble). You end up having too few shrines, your eco can't keep up and you usually end up being in trouble at a 8-9mn push instead.

[Wuangaga]

I'd like to see some recent games as well.
The past told us that sending 600c (for naginata) + 5 ashi card + irregulars simply stop the rush for good.
But Diarouga said it's not enough, so I would like to see why, as well

I find that Yumi behind walls is not the best strategy vs Russia. You waste a lot of wood and vill seconds (not to mention the explorer can step on wall foundations and give you trouble). You end up having too few shrines, your eco can't keep up and you usually end up being in trouble at a 8-9mn push instead.

If you have good building placement you probably use like 20-30 wood on those walls. Which is close to nothing regarding the fact that you just don't lose any units to 5 coss and 4 coss.