Japan nerf?

[Hagi]

If you have good building placement you probably use like 20-30 wood on those walls. Which is close to nothing regarding the fact that you just don't lose any units to 5 coss and 4 coss.

I agree with that on certain maps.
Other maps requires too much wood for walls.
Also, vs russia, you have to build your walls before any market or military buildings.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I'd like to see some recent games as well.
The past told us that sending 600c (for naginata) + 5 ashi card + irregulars simply stop the rush for good.
But Diarouga said it's not enough, so I would like to see why, as well

I find that Yumi behind walls is not the best strategy vs Russia. You waste a lot of wood and vill seconds (not to mention the explorer can step on wall foundations and give you trouble). You end up having too few shrines, your eco can't keep up and you usually end up being in trouble at a 8-9mn push instead.

The past showed us that this strat does not work.
We've already had this discussion and someone posted a rec where takuman (who wasn't even doing the optimal rush), smashed naga's japs even if naga defended with vills very well.
I also asked naga on eso and he said 600c 1st was the best strat vs russia but it is a hard mu for jap.
Even the one who made the strat says that it doesn t win the mu.

A normal jap ages at 4:50-5min, russia comes at 5min so you will have very hard time to build your stable, and then to get enough ressources to make 4 nagis and be able to hold. The only way is to go 600c/5ashis as you said and to cut his vill prod and after the rush you have 16-17vills and 70-80 shrine pop and you just loose to the next timing.

So basically to hold the rush, you can either go all in (300w/5ashis), or cm.
I won't argue why all in isn't viable, I'm sure you know why.
And vs wall/yumis, you can just go for a semi. I usually rush with 5musk/13 strel and then send 5 coss who'll came at the same time as his nagi or yumis, vs walls just go 13 strel/700w/700g, make 10 more musks, 2 food ups from the market, take the tp line if you can and age 3.
Then go vet musk/vet strel+2 falcs.

There's a game where boneng won naga's jap that way on the jap community, I also played a game vs cramper where he went walls, 600w/4v/600g semi with 10 yumis+besteiros, sadly it wasn't rec.

[Wuangaga]

If you have good building placement you probably use like 20-30 wood on those walls. Which is close to nothing regarding the fact that you just don't lose any units to 5 coss and 4 coss.

I agree with that on certain maps.
Other maps requires too much wood for walls.
Also, vs russia, you have to build your walls before any market or military buildings.

Walling your base is not really dependend on the map, except having two or one starting coin mine maybe. You'd build the walls before the other buildings or rather while buildings the other ones, it's really not a big commitment and does still give you a lot of value.

[r4go]

I'd like to see some recent games as well.
The past told us that sending 600c (for naginata) + 5 ashi card + irregulars simply stop the rush for good.
But Diarouga said it's not enough, so I would like to see why, as well

I find that Yumi behind walls is not the best strategy vs Russia. You waste a lot of wood and vill seconds (not to mention the explorer can step on wall foundations and give you trouble). You end up having too few shrines, your eco can't keep up and you usually end up being in trouble at a 8-9mn push instead.

The past showed us that this strat does not work.
We've already had this discussion and someone posted a rec where takuman (who wasn't even doing the optimal rush), smashed naga's japs even if naga defended with vills very well.
I also asked naga on eso and he said 600c 1st was the best strat vs russia but it is a hard mu for jap.
Even the one who made the strat says that it doesn t win the mu.

A normal jap ages at 4:50-5min, russia comes at 5min so you will have very hard time to build your stable, and then to get enough ressources to make 4 nagis and be able to hold. The only way is to go 600c/5ashis as you said and to cut his vill prod and after the rush you have 16-17vills and 70-80 shrine pop and you just loose to the next timing.

So basically to hold the rush, you can either go all in (300w/5ashis), or cm.
I won't argue why all in isn't viable, I'm sure you know why.
And vs wall/yumis, you can just go for a semi. I usually rush with 5musk/13 strel and then send 5 coss who'll came at the same time as his nagi or yumis, vs walls just go 13 strel/700w/700g, make 10 more musks, 2 food ups from the market, take the tp line if you can and age 3.
Then go vet musk/vet strel+2 falcs.

There's a game where boneng won naga's jap that way on the jap community, I also played a game vs cramper where he went walls, 600w/4v/600g semi with 10 yumis+besteiros, sadly it wasn't rec.

Diarouga, what h20 thinks about this MU?? do you know it??

[Hagi]

I'd like to see stronger players try this start (see RE game below)
What do you think?

[Papist]

Yeah I agree, they are op in team games, but the goal of this patch is to balance the 1v1, team isn't balanced anyway.

That attitude is precisely why team players don't gravitate towards the FP.

[Garja]

Good team players play on EP, just like 1v1 players. If the players are bad however...

[KINGofOsmane]

Yeah I agree, they are op in team games, but the goal of this patch is to balance the 1v1, team isn't balanced anyway.

well i think balanceing team and 1v1 at the same time is impossibale

[momuuu]

I honestly think yumis, especially in mass, are just plain stupid. Japan, to me, is too much of a civ that has to be hurt to be able to beat them. The design is very extreme really, which makes it icky and feel imbalanced sometimes.

[britishmusketeer]

I honestly think yumis, especially in mass, are just plain stupid. Japan, to me, is too much of a civ that has to be hurt to be able to beat them. The design is very extreme really, which makes it icky and feel imbalanced sometimes.

Totally agree. Also there are small handful of civs that beat japan comfortably, but most have no chance so if you are playing a civ like dutch you know that as long as they play correctly, there is absolutely no way you will ever have a chance. Same goes for french, ports, iro, india and spain.

[thebritish]

I honestly think yumis, especially in mass, are just plain stupid. Japan, to me, is too much of a civ that has to be hurt to be able to beat them. The design is very extreme really, which makes it icky and feel imbalanced sometimes.

Totally agree. Also there are small handful of civs that beat japan comfortably, but most have no chance so if you are playing a civ like dutch you know that as long as they play correctly, there is absolutely no way you will ever have a chance. Same goes for french, ports, iro, india and spain.

how brits have chance against japan?

[britishmusketeer]

I honestly think yumis, especially in mass, are just plain stupid. Japan, to me, is too much of a civ that has to be hurt to be able to beat them. The design is very extreme really, which makes it icky and feel imbalanced sometimes.

Totally agree. Also there are small handful of civs that beat japan comfortably, but most have no chance so if you are playing a civ like dutch you know that as long as they play correctly, there is absolutely no way you will ever have a chance. Same goes for french, ports, iro, india and spain.

how brits have chance against japan?

Lbow pike huss timing

[thebritish]

Show hidden quotes

I honestly think yumis, especially in mass, are just plain stupid. Japan, to me, is too much of a civ that has to be hurt to be able to beat them. The design is very extreme really, which makes it icky and feel imbalanced sometimes.

Totally agree. Also there are small handful of civs that beat japan comfortably, but most have no chance so if you are playing a civ like dutch you know that as long as they play correctly, there is absolutely no way you will ever have a chance. Same goes for french, ports, iro, india and spain.

how brits have chance against japan?

Lbow pike huss timing

he can go yumi/ashi samurai, or he cant?

[britishmusketeer]

he can go yumi/ashi samurai, or he cant?

pr26+ confirmed

[thebritish]

he can go yumi/ashi samurai, or he cant?

pr26+ confirmed

samurais are direct counter to huss, and they rape pikes easily

[britishmusketeer]

he can go yumi/ashi samurai, or he cant?

pr26+ confirmed

samurais are direct counter to huss, and they rape pikes easily

yes and they are also slow, easily focused down, super expensive, melee only ect

[thebritish]

Show hidden quotes

he can go yumi/ashi samurai, or he cant?

pr26+ confirmed

samurais are direct counter to huss, and they rape pikes easily

yes and they are also slow, easily focused down, super expensive, melee only ect

4.5 is slow?
they also have area damage, so..

[britishmusketeer]

4.5 is slow?
they also have area damage, so..

4.5 is slow for melee infantry yes, and area damage doesn't matter if they won't get a hit off. Maybe they are good at your level where no one micros, but past about pr20 they are useless.

[thebritish]

4.5 is slow?
they also have area damage, so..

4.5 is slow for melee infantry yes, and area damage doesn't matter if they won't get a hit off. Maybe they are good at your level where no one micros, but past about pr20 they are useless.

cav cant get away easy from them. one hit with area attack is pretty much enough, also, please tell me how you can kill his vet yumis with the HC upgrade and their wonder (included that they have 1.5 multiplier vs heavy inf.( they will rape musks/pikes, and his ashi and samurai will finish they job with dealing with cav

[britishmusketeer]

4.5 is slow?
they also have area damage, so..

4.5 is slow for melee infantry yes, and area damage doesn't matter if they won't get a hit off. Maybe they are good at your level where no one micros, but past about pr20 they are useless.

cav cant get away easy from them. one hit with area attack is pretty much enough, also, please tell me how you can kill his vet yumis with the HC upgrade and their wonder (included that they have 1.5 multiplier vs heavy inf.( they will rape musks/pikes, and his ashi and samurai will finish they job with dealing with cav

Cav can get easily away from them because they have 6.75 speed so with proper micro they should never take a hit. Yumis are indeed too strong but they don't get the wonder boost till age 3 and since you will be timing pushing before 10 mins it is unlikely they will have yumi attack in. You don't make musk vs japan only lbow pike cav with the pikes sieging or tanking in cover mode.

[thebritish]

why no musks?
if you dont make musks vs japan, you are just trying to intentionally lose

[tedere12]

why no musks?
if you dont make musks vs japan, you are just trying to intentionally lose

+1 all pros agree with you

[thebritish]

why no musks?
if you dont make musks vs japan, you are just trying to intentionally lose

+1 all pros agree with you

british have 2 colonial cards to boost musks, so if you dont plan to make them, its gg even before the game has started

[mnogud]

Japan is a normal civ, over rated because it used to be op before the nerf and because noobs don t play well against this civ.
I said that 100 times but they loose to china, azzy, otto, dutch, german, russia and have hard time vs india, sioux, fre, iro, brit (like 55-45 for jap).
How is it unbalanced? On the ep every civs can beat japan.

how the hell does sioux and french beat japan and vs german its a fair MU i think though german wins more

[britishmusketeer]

Japan is a normal civ, over rated because it used to be op before the nerf and because noobs don t play well against this civ.
I said that 100 times but they loose to china, azzy, otto, dutch, german, russia and have hard time vs india, sioux, fre, iro, brit (like 55-45 for jap).
How is it unbalanced? On the ep every civs can beat japan.

how the hell does sioux and french beat japan and vs german its a fair MU i think though german wins more

+1, more importantly how do dutch beat japan