ESOC Patch Suggestions

Belgium stanleywinston
Dragoon
Beginner Division WinnerDonator 01
Posts: 275
Joined: Jun 29, 2015
ESO: Stanley_Winston
Location: Belgium

ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by stanleywinston »

Hello ESOC,

I have played on the new patch and I must compliment you on the maps and the general feel to the patch.
Although, the balance changes that were made for some civs, has resulted in fairly unbalanced games recently in team games and as well in 1v1's.
Down below, i've listed the fp1.2, fp1.2a and Mac Gameranger's FP1.3 changes that were made to the game and adjusted them accordingly to my vision on the game.
In my opinion, fanpatch 1.2a was one of the most balanced patches that was released. It resulted in balance in 1v1, as in team games.
This is an honest view on the game right now and only wish that it gets better over time.


BALANCE CHANGES - GENERAL

• Schooners now only grants -30% wood cost for fishing boats and provides a dock wagon which sets it on par with the asian civilizations.
• Wall and gate hitpoints reduced to 2000 (down from 3000). Upgrade grants normal stats.
• Mercenary Loyalty now makes mercenary shipments 40% cheaper, and all saloon units 10% cheaper.
• Rifling now adds +×0.5 against Light Cavalry, and costs 250 wood and 300 gold.
• You now get a free native embassy travois the first time you ally with a native tribe.
• Asian civilizations can now construct native embassies.
• Bishop politician now provides 2 Settlers, 1 Priest, and 1 Church Wagon.
• Priest and Imam changes: Cost reduced to 150 gold (down from 200), train points reduced to 30 (down from 40), hit points reduced to 250 (down from 360), healing range increased to 14 (from 12), healing rate now increases by age (+20% in Fortress, +30% in Industrial, and +50% Imperial).

BALANCE CHANGES - CIVILIZATIONS

Aztecs

• Eagle Knight speed increased to 6.5 (up from 6.0).
• Temple of Centeotl Support now costs 500 food, provides 8 Macehualtins, and grants a +×0.75 multiplier against heavy infantry.
• Steel Traps set to obtainable.
• Farm upgrades (GreatFeast, HarvestCeremony, and GreenCornCeremony) no longer affect huntables.
• War Hut provides +5 population space (for Aztec War Hut only).
• 5 Coyote card to 6 Coyote card.
• Fast Age Up politician now provides a war hut travois.
• Macehualtin shipments reduced to 8 and 9 Macehualtin (down from 9 and 10).
• Puma Spearman shipment increased to 7 (up from 6).

British

• Yeoman card now only grants +2 range and LOS for Longbowmen.
• Guard Longbowman upgrade (available through Yeoman card) now grants +2 range and LOS for Longbowmen.
• Manor cost increased to 140 wood.

Chinese

• Keshik modifiers changed to ×3.5 against heavy cavalry and ×2.8 against Coyote Men (up from 3.0 and 2.4).
• Mongolian Scourge card changed to provide only +×0.5/0.4 for Keshiks (down from 1.0).
• Steppe Rider obstruction radius changed to 0.65 (down from 0.79) and cost changed to 80 gold.
• Banner army costs recalculated accordingly (Standard Army and Mongolian Army both down from 170 to 160 gold).
• Old Han Army Reforms changed to +50% cost and +50% hit points/damage for Chu Ko Nus and Qiang Pikemen (down from +50% and +75%).
• Chu Ko Nu cost changed to 90 food. Banner Army costs recalculated accordingly (Standard Army and Old Han Army both up from 255 to 270 food).
• 11 Changdao Swordsmen shipment changed to 12 Changdao Swordsmen.
• 14 Qiang Pikemen shipment to 13 Qiang Pikemen.
• Increase Arquebusier by cost of 10 coin.
• Steppe Rider hit points increased by 15.

Dutch

• Bank hit points reduced from 4000 to 3500.
• Bank XP build bounty increased to 110 XP (and kill adjusted as according).
• Ruyter cost changed from 30 food/75 coin to 35 food/75 coin.
• Bank of Amsterdam and Bank of Rotterdam now provide 15% increased gather rate.
• Default build limit for banks reduced to 4 (down from 6).

French

• Shipment bonus completely removed.
• Coureur Des Bois ranged resistance reduced by 0.1.
• Thoroughbreds now only provides a 5% faster training bonus and 10% decrease in cost (down from both 15%).

Germans

• Wallenstein's Contracts now costs 1000 gold, makes mercenary shipments cost 40% less and arrives 50% faster.
• Increased Settler Wagon multiplier against huntables by x1.
• Both 8 and 9 Uhlans shipments changed to 7 and 8 Uhlans.
• Uhlans now have a negative multiplier to villagers (x0.8).

Indians

• Sepoy hitpoints reduced from 190 to 170, ranged attack decreased from 25 to 24, cost reduced to 85f/30c.
• Mansabdar Sepoy hit points reduced from 380 to 360.
• TEAM 5 Urumi changed to 4 urumi, and food cost reduced from 600 to 500.
• 9 Sepoys card changed to 8 Sepoys.
• Ghurka automatically upgrade to Disciplined Status when India advances to Fortress Age.

Iroquois

• Steel Traps set to obtainable.
• Farm upgrades (GreatFeast, HarvestCeremony, and GreenCornCeremony) no longer affect huntables.
• 100 wood removed from starting crates.

Japanese

• Bushido Principles cost changed to 400 Export (from 250).
• Close Combat card changed to instead increase Ashigaru damage against cavalry and previous 15% hit point boost removed.
• Ashigaru hitpoints decreased to 160 (down from 170).
• Ashigaru cost reduced to 80f/35c.
• 5 Ashigaru and Yumi shipment now provides 6 Ashigarus and Yumis
• Honored Ashigaru upgrade now costs 1000c and 1000w and increases the stats to their original form (without any reducings).
• Yumi Archer ranged damage reduced by 2 (from 19 to 17).
• Shrine cost changed to 135 wood. Experience points adjusted accordingly.
• Explorer teleport regeneration 30% slower.
• Villager build limit increased to 80.

Ottomans

• Janissary hit points decreased to 210, and melee bonus against heavy cavalry and Coyote Men decreased to ×1.5.
• Light Artillery Hit Points changed to Cavalry Hit Points (substituted content of card for Iroquois card to make it easy).
• Abus Gun range decreased to 16 (down from 18)
• Abus Gun standard ranged attack decreased to 35 (down from 40)
• Guard Abus Gun upgrade now provides +2 range and line of sight for Abus Guns.
• Ottoman Marksman politician now provides 5 Abus Guns (up from 4).
• Ottoman base Settler build limit increased to 35.
• Topkapi cost changed to 300 wood and gold, and now provides +20 settler build limit.
• Tanzimat cost chaged to 300 food, wood, and gold, and now provides +25 settler build limit.
• Koprulu Viziers cost changed to 175 of each resource (down from 200 of each).
• Abus Gun range decreased to 2 (down from 4).

Portuguese

• Receives free hunting dogs upgrade from start of the game
• Imperial Jinete Dragoon now provides +2 range.
• Genitours only provides 4.00 range (up from 6.00)
• Cassador default ranged attack increased to 20 (up from 17)

Russians

• +1 starting food crate.
• Starts with 6 villagers.
• +2 Range for strelets with veteran upgrade.
• Musketeer hitpoints increased to 130 (up from 120)
• Musketeer ranged attack increased to 19 (up from 18)

Sioux

• Axe Rider cost reduced to 150f/40c
• Axe Rider base hitpoints increased to 260 (up from 250) and standard hand attack reduced to 33 (down from 35)
• Bow Rider hit points reduced to 230 (from 250).
• Bow Rider Ranged multiplier against heavy cavalry and Coyote Men reduced to ×2.25/×1.8 (down from ×2.75/×2.2).
• Bow Rider now have a negative multiplier (x0.75) against villagers.
• Elite Bow Riders upgrade now increases Bow Rider multiplier against heavy cavalry, villagers and Coyote Men to its former level.
• 4 villagers card changed to 5. This is accomplished by switching around the two native colonial age villager shipments.
• Steel Traps set to obtainable.
• 4 Axe Riders card increased to 5 Axe Riders but now costs 300 food.
• Farm upgrades (GreatFeast, HarvestCeremony, and GreenCornCeremony) no longer affect huntables.
• All non-military unit shipments provide bison.
• Cetan bow speed from 4.0 to 4.5

Spanish

• Effect of Unction reduced to 4% per Missionary.
• Missionaries subject to same changes as for Priests and Imams, but cost is changed to 75 wood and gold (down from 100 each), and hit points are reduced to 225 (down from 300).
• Receives free hunting dogs upgrade from start of the game.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by Garja »

Half of those changes are "bad" tho.
Image Image Image
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by Kaiserklein »

Yeah I must say I feel many changes suck... Some are not bad tho
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by Goodspeed »

First of all thanks for the input! Threads like these are valuable. Couple of things I want to address:
Although, the balance changes that were made for some civs, has resulted in fairly unbalanced games recently in team games and as well in 1v1's.
Can you be more specific? We are aware of the impact the Dutch changes had on teamgames, but other than that which of the changes do you feel have unbalanced the game?

As far as the Dutch changes go, it's likely that we will tweak them so that teamgames are less affected. For 1v1 however, I think we have to be looking at buffing Dutch even more.
Down below, i've listed the fp1.2 and fp1.2a changes that were made to the game and adjusted them accordingly to my vision on the game.
In my opinion, fanpatch 1.2a was one of the most balanced patches that was released. It resulted in balance in 1v1, as in team games.
I agree that FP 1.2a was a great balance patch, but it had its own problems. Some mistakes were made that we learned from:

1. Changing too much
FP 1.2a was not shy about making changes. This did a number of things that we want to avoid:
- Increased the workload of the testing team to the point where it was near impossible to test everything properly.
- The more changes, the more of them patch users potentially disagree with, in many cases strongly and vocally and sometimes for good reason.
- "Reset" the metagame. The meta is very fragile and will change drastically based on even small changes, and we want to avoid that for 2 reasons. The first reason is that this will be too big of a change for people to be interested in switching to the patch because they have the feeling they have to "start over". The second is that the current metagame is still evolving and moving into interesting new territory, and we don't want to mess with that.

It's tempting to change a lot, but in the end it's a rookie mistake to make for a balance team. Look at starcraft for example: almost every unit has been called OP or UP at some point, but Blizzard changed very little and allowed people the time to find answers to things they considered too weak or too strong rather than "fixing" them.

2. Standardizing
1.2a made a number of changes that were standardizing the civs. Couple of examples:
- Making steel traps available for native civs.
- The manor change (15 pop but more expensive), making the boom weaker and potential military presence stronger. The same was done to Japan.

We want to avoid this for I wanna say obvious reasons.

3. Overbuffing/overnerfing
I personally feel that as a general rule balance changes should not aim to completely balance a civ, but rather should aim to make the civ a little closer to balanced than they were. This way it's relatively easy to gauge the effect of certain (types of) changes and it's easier to tweak them in a way that gets the civ even closer to balanced in the future. Also the odds of overbuffing/overnerfing are high if you intend to balance a civ outright, since it is often the case that the testing team will not find the optimal way to use the buffs or will not find the optimal way to deal with the nerfs in the short time they are able to test the changes, resulting in an inaccurate view of the civ's balance.
An example is the free hunting dogs for Ports, which ended up being a much bigger change than was necessary but this is very hard to catch and prove when testing it unless you play a large number of games with the civ. Since there were 14 civs to test this ended up not being caught and an overbuff was the result.

4. Encouraging a certain playstyle
This is something we need to be very careful of. At the time of the previous FP, the metagame happened to be moving into musk+hussar territory. What happened was that because everyone played this way in testgames, the changes became very reliant of this playstyle and ultimately the balance of the patch relied on people playing a certain way. This could potentially (and I'm not saying this happened during the previous FP era although odds are it did at some point) result in playstyles that counter the meta to be nerfed, and playstyles that are countered by the meta to be buffed. The logical result of that is that the meta becomes unable to evolve.
Right now we need to be looking at the semi-FF meta as our enemy. We can't allow our changes to be based on it, because if we do this may result in a stagnating metagame whereas it has seen a lot of improvement in the past. The way we can do this is looking at our changes critically and making sure that they aren't there only because semi-FFs are currently a popular way to play. For example we shouldn't be nerfing mid colonial timing attacks because they beat the German semi-FF, but rather we should be looking at changing Germans in a way that they can choose not to semi-FF.

For the reasons stated above I have to disagree with many of your proposed changes, as well as the amount of changes. We want our changes to be small in number and effective, and we want them to be there for a reason beyond "this unit is too weak/strong" (for example the sepoy change) or "this shipment is too weak/strong" (for example the 5 coyote shipment). In my opinion we need to be looking at the balance of the civ as a whole and basing our changes on that.
Belgium stanleywinston
Dragoon
Beginner Division WinnerDonator 01
Posts: 275
Joined: Jun 29, 2015
ESO: Stanley_Winston
Location: Belgium

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by stanleywinston »

The changes I listed above are ALL the changes i'd make. For now the biggest changes that need to happen are following:

- Japan's Ashigarus
- Abus Guns (and Ottoman's economy)
- (Spain's economy)
- Jinete Dragoon's range
- (Native civ's eco)
- French's (Imperial) Gendarme Cuirassiers aka Thoroughbreds.
- Reforms (and China's economy)

I don't think what we ask is that much. If the patch focuses more on balance, there will be a lot more interest. And these changes don't mess around with the 1v1 meta. Just the steel traps are a huge change which may 'standardize' things, but form a balanced game. The only thing I know is that I still can't go in an ESOC Patch team game and pick my lovely Japan without getting yelled at: "NO JAPAN".
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by zoom »

Yes, and if the patch focuses too much on balance, there will be a lot more disinterest as well.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:Half of those changes are "bad" tho.

Unfortunately so, yes.
Belgium stanleywinston
Dragoon
Beginner Division WinnerDonator 01
Posts: 275
Joined: Jun 29, 2015
ESO: Stanley_Winston
Location: Belgium

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by stanleywinston »

Lol, I have disinterest in this patch now because there's no balance at all. Might as well quit the game again and go play Starcraft II like a noob.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by Garja »

ashigaru are fine
gendarmes are only op in very lategame and few units still beat them
jinete range is imo ok but probably will be nerfed
old han is op and will be nerfed I think
native civs eco is totally ok
spain eco is also ok, it's more about their units and cards being trash

this patch is balanced already btw
Image Image Image
User avatar
No Flag Wuangaga
Lancer
Posts: 584
Joined: Jun 6, 2015

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by Wuangaga »

Baby's gonna cry if it doesn't get what it wants?
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by Goodspeed »

stanleywinston wrote:The changes I listed above are ALL the changes i'd make. For now the biggest changes that need to happen are following:

- Japan's Ashigarus
- Abus Guns (and Ottoman's economy)
- (Spain's economy)
- Jinete Dragoon's range
- (Native civ's eco)
- French's (Imperial) Gendarme Cuirassiers aka Thoroughbreds.
- Reforms (and China's economy)

I don't think what we ask is that much. If the patch focuses more on balance, there will be a lot more interest. And these changes don't mess around with the 1v1 meta. Just the steel traps are a huge change which may 'standardize' things, but form a balanced game. The only thing I know is that I still can't go in an ESOC Patch team game and pick my lovely Japan without getting yelled at: "NO JAPAN".
Bolded changes that I would be willing to consider, since they do not affect 1v1. For Spain's economy I would imagine giving them more eco shipments which would only ever get sent in team or treaty.
Genitours nerf is something 1v1 would also benefit from, same goes for Old han reforms.
Thoroughbreds is never sent in 1v1 so we can look at nerfing that.

I'm afraid fixing Japan without severely hurting 1v1 balance is near impossible. They just happen to be best scaling civ in the game, and teamgames tend to go late..

You should keep in mind though, teamgames are not our priority. Balancing 1v1 as well as team is not possible, and we will always prioritize 1v1.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by zoom »

stanleywinston wrote:Lol, I have disinterest in this patch now because there's no balance at all. Might as well quit the game again and go play Starcraft II like a noob.
It's a shame you feel that way, although you are clearly underestimating current balance as well. I would love tons more changes myself but it's all about making the patch as balanced and successful as possible at the same time. You'll just have to be patient if you want more changes.
France iNcog
Ninja
Posts: 13236
Joined: Mar 7, 2015

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by iNcog »

100% agree with everything goodspeed said.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
Belgium stanleywinston
Dragoon
Beginner Division WinnerDonator 01
Posts: 275
Joined: Jun 29, 2015
ESO: Stanley_Winston
Location: Belgium

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by stanleywinston »

I would be more than happy if the bolded suggestions get nerfed.
User avatar
No Flag thebritish
Jaeger
Posts: 3787
Joined: Jul 18, 2015

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by thebritish »

most of the changes here suck
-no need for explanation
krichk wrote: For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge thebritish
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by Hazza54321 »

Nah fuck all you guys I think this is good except free hunting dogs for spain
User avatar
No Flag thebritish
Jaeger
Posts: 3787
Joined: Jul 18, 2015

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by thebritish »

Hazza54321 wrote:Nah fuck all you guys I think this is good except free hunting dogs for spain

brits are mediocre civ and they got nerfed, lol.
the patch is very amateurish.
krichk wrote: For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge thebritish
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by Hazza54321 »

thebritish wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:Nah fuck all you guys I think this is good except free hunting dogs for spain

brits are mediocre civ and they got nerfed, lol.
the patch is very amateurish.

Brits are top tier rofl stop whining
User avatar
No Flag thebritish
Jaeger
Posts: 3787
Joined: Jul 18, 2015

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by thebritish »

Hazza54321 wrote:
thebritish wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:Nah fuck all you guys I think this is good except free hunting dogs for spain

brits are mediocre civ and they got nerfed, lol.
the patch is very amateurish.

Brits are top tier rofl stop whining

eco=/units
krichk wrote: For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge thebritish
No Flag sowemeetagain
Crossbow
Posts: 11
Joined: Apr 19, 2015

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by sowemeetagain »

change the saloon card so it gives you a saloon build limit +1 and make it somewhat valuable
Belgium stanleywinston
Dragoon
Beginner Division WinnerDonator 01
Posts: 275
Joined: Jun 29, 2015
ESO: Stanley_Winston
Location: Belgium

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by stanleywinston »

British are for sure one of the top civs. No doubt about that haha.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by Kaiserklein »

sowemeetagain wrote:change the saloon card so it gives you a saloon build limit +1 and make it somewhat valuable


Yeah not bad, the one saloon thing sucks. After all mercs already suck in late game because they barely get upgraded, if you also can't produce them fast enough then the saloon is useless. Maybe this card could also reduce the training time for all saloon units, or upgrade them a bit, for example +10% hp and attack, or reduce their cost by 10%...
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
United States of America iCourt
Retired Contributor
Posts: 700
Joined: Jan 14, 2016
ESO: iCourt
Location: Monterey, California

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by iCourt »

Interesting that the Mac FP 1.3 is brought up so often on these forums. The Mac FP 1.3 was just to reverse some of the changes that boosted or nerfed civs too much on the AS FP 1.2 (ex. 15 pop manors back to 10 pop). We also worked on several bug fixes. They were updated changes to a different patch, and implementing them on top of the RE patch would change the game perhaps too much.

If anything, bug fixes from the previous fan patches should be implemented, but the balance changes were probably too significant. Less is more sometimes.
User avatar
United States of America _H2O
ESOC Business Team
Donator 06
Posts: 3409
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
ESO: _H2O

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by _H2O »

Yea I am super interested in talking through that list with you. Theres some I would want to avoid touching for various little reasons, want to see what your view is on that. PM your skype name sometime if you wanna work together on getting those in the next patch (we have plenty of time).
User avatar
United States of America iCourt
Retired Contributor
Posts: 700
Joined: Jan 14, 2016
ESO: iCourt
Location: Monterey, California

Re: ESOC Patch Suggestions

Post by iCourt »

I'm up for that. As I said before we can always pick and choose which bugs to fix. Won't happen till after this weekend. I'll be in attendance at Levi's Stadium to watch my Denver Broncos get annihilated by the Carolina Panthers. :(

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV