Grenadiers

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Re: Grenadiers

Post by Imperial Noob »

Kaiserklein wrote:If grens had a much quicker animation, they would be able to hit and run, which means they would be much better against hand cav. They would also do better against skirms, because atm skirms can shoot like 5 volleys before the grens get in range and throw their shit ; and when they do, their animation is so slow that skirms have enough time to run away, and get 5 free volleys again, etc. With a faster animation this wouldn't happen either


Still, 16*0.5*2(cap)=16 damage against hand cavalry is nothing spectacular. Musketeers do 23*0.8 ~18 while being only one pop and also have fantastic melee damage against heavy cavalry. Also, they train from barracs, instead of a useless in colonial age 300w foundry. What is the point of producing grenadiers then? Besides, skirmishers will smash them even with animations improved. HI tag and range difference are enough to bring peril to a unit, that in microed combat is marginally better against them than the janissaries.

My point is, they are alike musketeers, yet nothing saves them from cavalry. Advices like "Well, add some pikes" are out of place here, because grenadiers should be able to do it themeselves. They counter not enough units to be useful, and their "siege potential" in colonial is laughable argument to train them when you could have pikes or easy to manage masses of musketeers instead.

About "having fun" in team games - that is obviously an area for unconventional strats. Sadly, it proves nothing.
Grenadiers remain an conventional unit that is as useful in competitive gameplay as outlaws and native rushes. "Only against weaker players" :roll:
Maybe it has something to do with my quiet wish of making AoE III less chess and more Company of Heroes, but hey, grenadiers could be normal if shown some love.

Against a statement, that patches are not meant to radically change the game I can only surrender, because...well, my whole reasoning is rendered pointless. RIP grens.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by deleted_user »

When I was on mac, there was a fella along the name of Baron Todd. He had a very specific grenadier rush as British, and back then I thought it was the most OP thing I had ever seen. Of course, I was a MS in level, but nothing will change my mind that his gren rush was simply too OP, and the build order has simply been lost in time so no one has been able to recreate it. If we buff grens, I'm afraid someone will discover it and the game will be ruined forever.

@Mitoe you might appreciate this tale.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by zoom »

Suggestion:

Remove heavy infantry tag, decrease ranged resistance from 50% to 30%.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by pecelot »

umeu wrote:
medinos wrote:Can you make them possible to even be cost effective ?
Like to make them playable I mean they take long to train and all...

Well ESO-C devs any ideas about that ?


i'd like grens either to be available in the barracks and kept as they are, as a siege unit. currently they arent used much because its not worth to make a foundry just for their siege potential. but if they are from the barracks, i can see them being made in small batches vs some civs such as japan or in some situations like vs turtles.

otherwise i'd like to see them remain in the foundtry but totally reworked. i could see a nice role for them as a tanky heavy infantry unit that is good at killing other heavy infantry. kinda like a Jaguar knight but with range instead. it would be good vs heavy infantry (have like a 1.5 bonus + splash, high hp and high RR) but be bad vs ranged infantry (because low range and a 0.75 malus or something vs ranged infantry) this would create a new dimension to musk huss battles or pure musk battles. where if one player would add grens to add musk, the other player could add longbow to kill the grens.


this

Imperial Noob wrote:I see it that way:
Grenadiers get destroyed not only by skirms, but also (and mainly, because I guess the majority of you talks about age II usage) by melee cavalry. I do not see how changing animation will help if 3 hussars can kill 7 or 8 of those guys with no issues.

To sum up their place in the food chain:
Melee cavalry kills them quickly (0.5 multiplier vs cavalry, 8 melee damage, slower, lower hitpoints) Verdict: Artillery
Light cavalry wins all the time (both in range and in melee), nothing like against musketeers. Verdict: Artillery
Heavy infantry - grenadiers do decent against them, fairly well too if mixed with musketeer-type unit. Verdict: HI
Skirms kite them to death due to the range difference and a HI tag. Verdict: HI
In age III cannons wreck them due to the range difference and a HI tag. Verdict: HI
They do well against buildings, in terms of siege damage/pop however only slightly better than musketeers Verdict: HI

We can see a clear conflict here. The only solution in such a paper-rock-scissors game is to define them.
Either move them to barracks, remove their 0.5 range multipliers and give them a melee multiplier against cavalry of 3.0 to make them a heavy infantry unit...
or fix/speed up their animation, slightly increase their range and remove the HI tag (no idea if it would suffice though) and leave them as a sort of poor man's artillery.


"Some talk of Alexander, and some of Hercules... of Hector and Lysander, and such great names as these...but of all the world's great heroes, there's none that can compete... with a tow row row row row row, to the British Grenadiers..."


and this
I agree with these statements!
In Cossacks they have bad-ass bayonets that just wreck cav, I think it would be a brilliant idea! It's not that game-changing, as far as I'm concerned, one of the purposes of the patch was to bring more variety to the game by buffing options that nowadays (or „in the current meta" lol) are quite unusual, such as balloons or grenadiers. I would opt for one of these three solutions:
1) move them to the barracks
2) remove the HI tag
3) add x2 multiplier in melee against cav — that's not such a big deal, but just makes them a little bit less vulnerable to cavalry of all kinds.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by deleted_user »

Honestly, eumeu's suggestion of making them available in the barracks sounds like the best option, if the ESOC dev team decides to look at grens. Honestly though, I don't think it's a pressing issue but would be neat to see some gren play. Actually, it might even be decent for brits after they've sent both the musk/gren cards to start mixing them in. Actually, that sounds [img]really[/img] good. At punishing a semi ff.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by forgrin »

thebritish wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Lol ok we will test it and I will cast it rofl
Skirms would have 240 hp, but do you know people don't start the game in imperial age ? Could you please use your neurons and stop taking that age into account since we never come to it ?
Oh ok you do that upgrade often ? Playing brits ? lmao... Nobody ever makes it, it's a late game upgrade,you can't invest 450w 200g just to get skirms kill musks in 4 shots instead of 5 wtf

Did you knew that nobody makes grenadiers unless he is in imperial age with all upgrades.



Theory: thebritish is actually a NR20 player, and doesn't actually realise that supremacy is a normal game mode that people play. He thinks everyone else also plays NR20.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by nilfixs »

I would like Grenadiers if they had a little more speed.
Kinda like the ashigaru with 4.5 .
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by g06092 »

Changing animation (by speeding up) is not an option - it will increase the overall rate of fire, change the design of the unit and perhaps look bad in terms of visualization.
Adding to barracks seem a bad idea also because then abus guns should be trained there too. After all Ottomans are the one that have 3 units in Colonial and need 3 military building to create all of them but yet no complains about that. Also then Russia should have them in batches and cheaper? Too much changes and still the unit will be the same as stats.
Changing the counter system around the unit (by changing modifiers) doesn't sound like a change by the ESOC patch team either.
IMO the direction of changes we should be looking for is in the following directions (only one):
- Cheaper artillery foundry (200 wood) and + 2 range (not big fan or range changing)
- Cheaper unit (100f 60g for example) to at least compensate the wood for extra houses
- Increase all type of damage by ~15%
IMO grenadiers aren't really that bad performing. They are underrated and I still don't understand discussions for performance vs the counter units like hand cav and skirmshers. Of couse they'll be bad. Their strength is killing infantry balls and having good siege damage vs buildings (which needs a small buf). You should never compare them on their own because they are a bit bad at taking the final blow by leaving units on low HP (or at least slow killing because of not concentrated damage and low base damage). They will never be widely used unless they get super bufs that make them OP which obviously is not desired. As someone already said - brits have longbows and good muskets, Russia has strelets and while having no upgrades for the grenadiers, dutch has skirms and otto has abus guns.
They are a bit awkward because they are good at soaking up damage but are not on the front line. They are good at dealing a decent damage per hit but at not good and finishing off the unit. Also another problem is that you can't really use them in 2 unit combos with any other unit.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by Kaiserklein »

g06092 wrote:Changing animation (by speeding up) is not an option - it will increase the overall rate of fire, change the design of the unit and perhaps look bad in terms of visualization.

This is false imo, and anyway if you don't change their animation they will never be good, unless you buff their stats really really hard.
Why do we have to change it ? Because right now grens are kinda the opposite of goons. Goons are so mobile that they can run from any bad fight, and if there is a good fight they will chase all enemy units until there isn't any left. What about grens ? They can't hit and run so they basically can't fled at all (if you have for example 15 grens, 2 huss will be enough to snare you, and then you lose all your grens to the other units. If you had had let's say 20 skirms or musks or even bows, you would have been able to kite huss, then run away). And you can't hit and run the other way, pushing towards the enemy army that is running away, because of the same problem. Against skirms you're basically dead, if you try to push them they kite to death. And they do decent vs HI, but nothing special really.
And they are designed as a "rush" unit : those guys are supposed to tank, siege, push the enemy base. How can you do that when you aren't able to ever push because of the animation ? For example, lbs are fine because the animation doesn't prevent them from defending your base (that's their main purpose). But for grens it's different.

I can't see why it would increase their ROF btw. And yeah it might look bad if they throw the grenade really fast, but who cares as long as they are balanced ?
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by momuuu »

The animation in combination with the range is why grens are meh. In standing fights these things are actually beastly (in particular with the arsenal upgrade, which doesnt get moved to age 2 with aa unfortunately haha) and just kill most shit, especially once you get a critical mass (I think 50 or so grens might even do decent against cav lol).

But why change grens in ep, that just not in line with the goals.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by lesllamas »

^I've seen you say this a lot Jerom. Incidentally, it always happens to be when people are discussing making very weak or practically worthless units usable. I don't see the logic for not wanting to do this. If you're going to nerf Sioux BR for being too strong, so as to encourage a more diverse range of playstyles/options (while BR still being a good unit), then I don't know why you would have a problem with buffing units like gren, halb, etc. to a point where they might actually be usable to accomplish the same goal.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by iNcog »

But why change grens in ep, that just not in line with the goals.


I would like to hope that those goals get adjusted. Not NOW, but in the future. :)
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by zoom »

lesllamas wrote:^I've seen you say this a lot Jerom. Incidentally, it always happens to be when people are discussing making very weak or practically worthless units usable. I don't see the logic for not wanting to do this. If you're going to nerf Sioux BR for being too strong, so as to encourage a more diverse range of playstyles/options (while BR still being a good unit), then I don't know why you would have a problem with buffing units like gren, halb, etc. to a point where they might actually be usable to accomplish the same goal.

My thoughts exactly.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by iNcog »

I agree as well, but buffing certain things should probably be held off until a later date.

Especially since many of these units are already somewhat viable in some situations. Not sure about Grenadiers, but halbs have their uses even today.

In the future anyway. I think EP has bigger fish to fry right now. x)
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by Papist »

I'm still hoping age 2 Dutch halbs get tested :P. Halb/gren ftw!
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by momuuu »

lesllamas wrote:^I've seen you say this a lot Jerom. Incidentally, it always happens to be when people are discussing making very weak or practically worthless units usable. I don't see the logic for not wanting to do this. If you're going to nerf Sioux BR for being too strong, so as to encourage a more diverse range of playstyles/options (while BR still being a good unit), then I don't know why you would have a problem with buffing units like gren, halb, etc. to a point where they might actually be usable to accomplish the same goal.

Well a) its not worth the testing time required atm
And b) you risk changing the game for the worse. Game's not gonna be fun when grens are actually viable, I can tell you already. Grens are actually decent and usable already at slightly lower levels, theyre not great and thats fine. A unit that starts beating shit on its own and can take down buildings like nothing else, thats not going to be fun probably.
c) the larger the patch the harder it is for others to switch.

I think its a fine goal to set to just tweak balance and stay clear from gameplay. You cant really alienate people that way or mess up, as the game is surely fun to play in its current gameplay state.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by Kaiserklein »

Jerom wrote:
lesllamas wrote:^I've seen you say this a lot Jerom. Incidentally, it always happens to be when people are discussing making very weak or practically worthless units usable. I don't see the logic for not wanting to do this. If you're going to nerf Sioux BR for being too strong, so as to encourage a more diverse range of playstyles/options (while BR still being a good unit), then I don't know why you would have a problem with buffing units like gren, halb, etc. to a point where they might actually be usable to accomplish the same goal.

Well a) its not worth the testing time required atm
And b) you risk changing the game for the worse. Game's not gonna be fun when grens are actually viable, I can tell you already. Grens are actually decent and usable already at slightly lower levels, theyre not great and thats fine. A unit that starts beating shit on its own and can take down buildings like nothing else, thats not going to be fun probably.
c) the larger the patch the harder it is for others to switch.

I think its a fine goal to set to just tweak balance and stay clear from gameplay. You cant really alienate people that way or mess up, as the game is surely fun to play in its current gameplay state.

I don't understand your b). Grens siege buildings only 1.5 times better than musks, and they beat the shit out of most units in colonial. They get by skirms, just like grens. And they can kill cav, unlike grens. Add the fact you need an art foundry... I mean, in the current meta, people aren't training that many musks, while it's a much more polyvalent unit that grens (even if grens get buffed). So why would they train many grens ? It would just add a bit of variety to colonial wars. Plus not many civs have grens and wish to use them : otto, russ and dutch all have a better anti inf than grens. Only brit could arguably mix them, with musk/gren cards.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by lesllamas »

^Agree. Jerom, I don't think anybody is suggesting that we give units like halbs 6 speed, +5 base hand attack, 40% ranged resist, or whatever kind of shit that would make the unit a centerpiece to everyone's fortress play. Suggesting that weak units be buffed is in no way unrealistic or unreasonable when you're making a balance patch. Small changes like reducing or raising certain units' resistances, cost, upgrades, availability, animations, etc. all push units closer to a point of viability. There is no world in which you can realistically tell me that grens are viable. In a non-Aiz game (or maybe including Aiz games, but I think this is a useful disclaimer lol), I don't think any match played in the last two tournament brackets featured grens being made at ALL. And if you want to argue that at lower levels they become viable, then you contradict the patch team's insistence that this patch is for HIGH LEVEL play. You can't have it both ways, man. Either you accept that at high level play certain units would need to be buffed to be considered in a balanced state, or that the patch is NOT geared towards high level play. Seeing as it's so clearly geared towards high level play, you must accept that certain units require buffs to be considered even usable.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by Jaeger »

Imperial Noob wrote:I see it that way:

"Some talk of Alexander, and some of Hercules... of Hector and Lysander, and such great names as these...but of all the world's great heroes, there's none that can compete... with a tow row row row row row, to the British Grenadiers..."

Haha I googled this to see if it was an actual quote and the only place on the internet that google found was ESOC, Grenadiers thread, page 2
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by deleted_user »

Greens r fun ye?
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by momuuu »

lesllamas wrote:^Agree. Jerom, I don't think anybody is suggesting that we give units like halbs 6 speed, +5 base hand attack, 40% ranged resist, or whatever kind of shit that would make the unit a centerpiece to everyone's fortress play. Suggesting that weak units be buffed is in no way unrealistic or unreasonable when you're making a balance patch. Small changes like reducing or raising certain units' resistances, cost, upgrades, availability, animations, etc. all push units closer to a point of viability. There is no world in which you can realistically tell me that grens are viable. In a non-Aiz game (or maybe including Aiz games, but I think this is a useful disclaimer lol), I don't think any match played in the last two tournament brackets featured grens being made at ALL. And if you want to argue that at lower levels they become viable, then you contradict the patch team's insistence that this patch is for HIGH LEVEL play. You can't have it both ways, man. Either you accept that at high level play certain units would need to be buffed to be considered in a balanced state, or that the patch is NOT geared towards high level play. Seeing as it's so clearly geared towards high level play, you must accept that certain units require buffs to be considered even usable.

I dont know, dont see the benefit of them being viable that much. I guess it could be cool if you can make them as brits. Gren musks. Doesn't sound so bad in theory but otto dutch and russia will still only use them to cheese haha. Halb buff at some point could be nice I guess if you wanna make such a patch. But before that I'd touch goon/xbow/musk balance.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by pecelot »

lesllamas wrote:^I've seen you say this a lot Jerom. Incidentally, it always happens to be when people are discussing making very weak or practically worthless units usable. I don't see the logic for not wanting to do this. If you're going to nerf Sioux BR for being too strong, so as to encourage a more diverse range of playstyles/options (while BR still being a good unit), then I don't know why you would have a problem with buffing units like gren, halb, etc. to a point where they might actually be usable to accomplish the same goal.

exactly, totally agree

Jerom wrote:And b) you risk changing the game for the worse. Game's not gonna be fun when grens are actually viable, I can tell you already. Grens are actually decent and usable already at slightly lower levels, theyre not great and thats fine. A unit that starts beating shit on its own and can take down buildings like nothing else, thats not going to be fun probably.
c) the larger the patch the harder it is for others to switch.


b) cuirs, opris or dog soldier boxes are lame and OP, but you can't say they aren't fun. Grens are nowhere near being OP or lame.
c) maybe people don't play on EP because the difference isn't so significant?

Jerom wrote:
lesllamas wrote:^Agree. Jerom, I don't think anybody is suggesting that we give units like halbs 6 speed, +5 base hand attack, 40% ranged resist, or whatever kind of shit that would make the unit a centerpiece to everyone's fortress play. Suggesting that weak units be buffed is in no way unrealistic or unreasonable when you're making a balance patch. Small changes like reducing or raising certain units' resistances, cost, upgrades, availability, animations, etc. all push units closer to a point of viability. There is no world in which you can realistically tell me that grens are viable. In a non-Aiz game (or maybe including Aiz games, but I think this is a useful disclaimer lol), I don't think any match played in the last two tournament brackets featured grens being made at ALL. And if you want to argue that at lower levels they become viable, then you contradict the patch team's insistence that this patch is for HIGH LEVEL play. You can't have it both ways, man. Either you accept that at high level play certain units would need to be buffed to be considered in a balanced state, or that the patch is NOT geared towards high level play. Seeing as it's so clearly geared towards high level play, you must accept that certain units require buffs to be considered even usable.

I dont know, dont see the benefit of them being viable that much. I guess it could be cool if you can make them as brits. Gren musks. Doesn't sound so bad in theory but otto dutch and russia will still only use them to cheese haha. Halb buff at some point could be nice I guess if you wanna make such a patch. But before that I'd touch goon/xbow/musk balance.


Well, you have to realize they are only viable for Brits in age 2 since in Fortress you already have falconets. They aren't an option in most cases, so why not buff them a little bit? Solutions for this problem can be found above. Think again before you write that they can become too OP for Brits with the buff — it would require to send 3 or even 4 colonial cards (I'm taking AA into consideration). If you still think so, maybe think of changing the cards: instead of 15% attack for musks and grens, make it 15% for musks and 10% for grens. Naturally the buff then would affect all gren civs and simultaneously wouldn't make British grens OP.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by Imperial Noob »

ovi12 wrote:Haha I googled this to see if it was an actual quote and the only place on the internet that google found was ESOC, Grenadiers thread, page 2


Here's my source
https://youtu.be/OIVSpY8xY9I?t=2m19s
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by Atomiswave »

Jerom wrote:
lesllamas wrote:^Agree. Jerom, I don't think anybody is suggesting that we give units like halbs 6 speed, +5 base hand attack, 40% ranged resist, or whatever kind of shit that would make the unit a centerpiece to everyone's fortress play. Suggesting that weak units be buffed is in no way unrealistic or unreasonable when you're making a balance patch. Small changes like reducing or raising certain units' resistances, cost, upgrades, availability, animations, etc. all push units closer to a point of viability. There is no world in which you can realistically tell me that grens are viable. In a non-Aiz game (or maybe including Aiz games, but I think this is a useful disclaimer lol), I don't think any match played in the last two tournament brackets featured grens being made at ALL. And if you want to argue that at lower levels they become viable, then you contradict the patch team's insistence that this patch is for HIGH LEVEL play. You can't have it both ways, man. Either you accept that at high level play certain units would need to be buffed to be considered in a balanced state, or that the patch is NOT geared towards high level play. Seeing as it's so clearly geared towards high level play, you must accept that certain units require buffs to be considered even usable.

I dont know, dont see the benefit of them being viable that much. I guess it could be cool if you can make them as brits. Gren musks. Doesn't sound so bad in theory but otto dutch and russia will still only use them to cheese haha. Halb buff at some point could be nice I guess if you wanna make such a patch. But before that I'd touch goon/xbow/musk balance.


Especially goon. Its too good for its cost. You can use it on cannons, hand cav, hand inf and even some ranged units very effectively.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by pecelot »

Goons' only counter are skirms, which still have only 1.05 multiplier against them, bearing in mind all the tags. Later on, goons also annihilate musks, for instance with their additional 2 range.

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