Grenadiers

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No Flag thebritish
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by thebritish »

Kaiserklein wrote:Lol ok we will test it and I will cast it rofl
Skirms would have 240 hp, but do you know people don't start the game in imperial age ? Could you please use your neurons and stop taking that age into account since we never come to it ?
Oh ok you do that upgrade often ? Playing brits ? lmao... Nobody ever makes it, it's a late game upgrade,you can't invest 450w 200g just to get skirms kill musks in 4 shots instead of 5 wtf

Did you knew that nobody makes grenadiers unless he is in imperial age with all upgrades.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by Panmaster »

1 grenadier is tougher than 2 musketeers and might do more damage depending on the damage cap.

Grenadiers should be able to shoot like the ones in Cossacks. They were elite infantry, not siege units.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by britishmusketeer »

Kaiserklein wrote:
thebritish wrote:
Show hidden quotes

you get this upgrade in 1 out of 100 games, not me. Also, don't be jealous.
Btw, i said that if you take out the RR with the multiplier, the multiplier isnt big, and i doubt that you can beat 400 HP grenadiers with 50% RR with 250 HP skirms. (we can test it if you think that you can win)


Lol ok we will test it and I will cast it rofl
Skirms would have 240 hp, but do you know people don't start the game in imperial age ? Could you please use your neurons and stop taking that age into account since we never come to it ?
Oh ok you do that upgrade often ? Playing brits ? lmao... Nobody ever makes it, it's a late game upgrade,you can't invest 450w 200g just to get skirms kill musks in 4 shots instead of 5 wtf

There is way to explain anything to him. Trust me I tried pretty hard.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by Rikikipu »

thebritish wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Lol ok we will test it and I will cast it rofl
Skirms would have 240 hp, but do you know people don't start the game in imperial age ? Could you please use your neurons and stop taking that age into account since we never come to it ?
Oh ok you do that upgrade often ? Playing brits ? lmao... Nobody ever makes it, it's a late game upgrade,you can't invest 450w 200g just to get skirms kill musks in 4 shots instead of 5 wtf

Did you knew that nobody makes grenadiers unless he is in imperial age with all upgrades.


False.
I've remembered having trolling you with grenadiers in age 2.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by thebritish »

Rikikipu wrote:
thebritish wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Lol ok we will test it and I will cast it rofl
Skirms would have 240 hp, but do you know people don't start the game in imperial age ? Could you please use your neurons and stop taking that age into account since we never come to it ?
Oh ok you do that upgrade often ? Playing brits ? lmao... Nobody ever makes it, it's a late game upgrade,you can't invest 450w 200g just to get skirms kill musks in 4 shots instead of 5 wtf

Did you knew that nobody makes grenadiers unless he is in imperial age with all upgrades.


False.
I've remembered having trolling you with grenadiers in age 2.

we have never played
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by NekoBerk »

When i was PR 18 i used to make Musk - Grenadier with brits and i won a lot of games with that, was really OP against civs that are making FF or Semi-FF (you have to avoid them with the rush musk-grenadier arrive to fortress age because there you're dead because the skirms) but it only works with people of your same level or less, with people better than you doesn't work, is stupid make it against a PR 25 for exemple, so i stopped of make that shit and now i'm PR 20, but i consider the musk-grenadier as a troll tactic for destroy noobs (On GameRanger especially).
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by tedere12 »

i think dutch have a viable gren rush on low level team games. I used to age with 12/10 vils with 400w no bank and builda forward art. foundry and tower to spam grens, ship 8 pikes and teammate goes cav so that u siege tc and he kills vills/mm. Ofc its easy to lose when the opponent knows what to do but its fun :P
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by Kaiserklein »

thebritish wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Lol ok we will test it and I will cast it rofl
Skirms would have 240 hp, but do you know people don't start the game in imperial age ? Could you please use your neurons and stop taking that age into account since we never come to it ?
Oh ok you do that upgrade often ? Playing brits ? lmao... Nobody ever makes it, it's a late game upgrade,you can't invest 450w 200g just to get skirms kill musks in 4 shots instead of 5 wtf

Did you knew that nobody makes grenadiers unless he is in imperial age with all upgrades.

Nobody makes grens either way lol... So when can I stream the test, 50 skirms vs 50 grens ?
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by NekoBerk »

tedere12 wrote:i think dutch have a viable gren rush on low level team games. I used to age with 12/10 vils with 400w no bank and builda forward art. foundry and tower to spam grens, ship 8 pikes and teammate goes cav so that u siege tc and he kills vills/mm. Ofc its easy to lose when the opponent knows what to do but its fun :P


Is better with brits because the improves of muskeeters improve the grenadiers too.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by tedere12 »

NekoBerk wrote:
tedere12 wrote:i think dutch have a viable gren rush on low level team games. I used to age with 12/10 vils with 400w no bank and builda forward art. foundry and tower to spam grens, ship 8 pikes and teammate goes cav so that u siege tc and he kills vills/mm. Ofc its easy to lose when the opponent knows what to do but its fun :P


Is better with brits because the improves of muskeeters improve the grenadiers too.

brits dont have 8 pikes and 400wood ageup
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by NekoBerk »

tedere12 wrote:
NekoBerk wrote:
tedere12 wrote:i think dutch have a viable gren rush on low level team games. I used to age with 12/10 vils with 400w no bank and builda forward art. foundry and tower to spam grens, ship 8 pikes and teammate goes cav so that u siege tc and he kills vills/mm. Ofc its easy to lose when the opponent knows what to do but its fun :P


Is better with brits because the improves of muskeeters improve the grenadiers too.

brits dont have 8 pikes and 400wood ageup


Brits have tower and 200 gold age up, brits have muskeeters that are more cost-effective than pikes, brits have the best boom...
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by tedere12 »

NekoBerk wrote:
tedere12 wrote:
Show hidden quotes

brits dont have 8 pikes and 400wood ageup


Brits have tower and 200 gold age up, brits have muskeeters that are more cost-effective than pikes, brits have the best boom...

its all about the rush lategame grens suck balls sorry but its the truth
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by Kaiserklein »

@thebritish I'm disappointed, thought you would have the balls to test skirms vs grens on livestream. Unless you already know you're wrong ?
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by NekoBerk »

tedere12 wrote:
NekoBerk wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Brits have tower and 200 gold age up, brits have muskeeters that are more cost-effective than pikes, brits have the best boom...

its all about the rush lategame grens suck balls sorry but its the truth


I agree but i'm talking about make Rush musk-grenadier with brits is more cost-effective with brits than dutch, sorry but is the truth, they have more HP and attack with brits and you're destroying so hard the opponent's city around the min 7-8 and in that minute there isn't some colony unit that can stop you (Except if your opponent is dutch and have a lot of skirms and make hit and run)
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by tedere12 »

and will you send the grens ups if you have 5 grens?! id rather ship 8 pikes as its much better for many reasons
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by NekoBerk »

tedere12 wrote:and will you send the grens ups if you have 5 grens?! id rather ship 8 pikes as its much better for many reasons


Well you said you do in low level teams, i do the musk-grenadier rush on 1v1 with persons of my same level or less, both are different modes of game, so we can't make an agreement :roll:
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by Papist »

thebritish wrote:i guess you have never seen 50 imperial grenadiers vs 50 imperial skirms. the fact that grenadiers have 50% RR means they own skirms np.
The secret to grenadiers is that they have to be in high numbers, also you cant kite grenadiers so easily because once they get in range, by the time you get out, you will lose atleast 5-6 skirms.
grenadiers are like bow units (they can hit units which are out of their range if they set up their animation before the enemy units gets out of range)


It's fairly easy to stay out of the range of grens, so they are easy to snipe with skirms. To address the point you made about throwing even when skirms are out of range, when this is done they will only hit the rear skirms, severely reducing the damage dealt. They are also more expensive and are slower, making them a far inferior unit. I would take skirms in a fight vs the two any day.

However, grens have a few advantages. They are great versus musks, are good tanks, and do a ton of damage against cannons (I first witnessed this in a team game when a Brit guy's 10 vet grens took out 3 falcs in a volley on the middle one.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by iCourt »

The unit is fine I think. In fights that aren't involving hit and run they are tanks. The only true issue with the unit is the population count. Should be 1 pop vs 2 pop. It's already an investment to be using an age2 artillery foundry and then to be forced into additional housing for a unit that's mediocre at best makes them useless currently.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by Kaiserklein »

iCourt wrote:The unit is fine I think. In fights that aren't involving hit and run they are tanks. The only true issue with the unit is the population count. Should be 1 pop vs 2 pop. It's already an investment to be using an age2 artillery foundry and then to be forced into additional housing for a unit that's mediocre at best makes them useless currently.


Since it would mostly be brits training grens now (because of upgrades, because ottos already have abus, because russia already has strelets, because dutch already have skirms), I don't think housing is an issue for grenadiers.

The main problem is, as you said, "in fights that aren't involving hit and run" they can be decent. But 90% of the time people either have age 3 skirms (and you won't force them into staying colonial with grens because it's slow to train/build art foundry, and mm have a 2 multiplier vs grens) or already have some kiting ranged inf in colonial. I mean, who will stay age 2 against a brit without ranged inf ? Mostly brits themselves, you can argue russia does (but strelets can kite grens). Maybe azzie cause maces can't really kite but they are so good against heavy inf that they will rape grens anyway.

The slow animation of grenadiers combined to their poor ranged makes them shitty
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by iCourt »

Then perhaps just drop the heavy infantry tag. Makes skirms able to kite still but they can't damage the unit too badly due to ranged resistance and no multipliers. Cavalry would be the hard counter. You get a unit with great siege and something that's decent in non kiting battles.

Or leave them alone entirely. I think they're fine.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by Rikikipu »

lordraphael wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Really just remove this awkward animation and they might just become viable. Because at the moment if you manage to come in range of enemy infantry, the time for you to use your grenadiers 1 time and the guy can just run. Even in colonial age musks are just more mobile, and overall skirms/goons way way better to micro.
This, or remove the HI tag which is making them so bad against skirms

i dont even think changing the setup animations for units is even possible. I could imagine it being hardcoded and therefore unchangeable at least i havent seen any change being done to unit attack animations in any patch yet which is a decent indicator for it being not possible. If it was possible various units could be balanced via a change of setup animation namely cetan bows grens yumis ( i would give yumis a similar setup animation to lbs bcs as they are right now they feel to much like skirm unit types with their hit and run capability while having a much stronger attack than skirms have )


I have checked the .tactics files, actually you can "easily" modify animation. It's just a .txt format.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by Imperial Noob »

I see it that way:
Grenadiers get destroyed not only by skirms, but also (and mainly, because I guess the majority of you talks about age II usage) by melee cavalry. I do not see how changing animation will help if 3 hussars can kill 7 or 8 of those guys with no issues.

To sum up their place in the food chain:
Melee cavalry kills them quickly (0.5 multiplier vs cavalry, 8 melee damage, slower, lower hitpoints) Verdict: Artillery
Light cavalry wins all the time (both in range and in melee), nothing like against musketeers. Verdict: Artillery
Heavy infantry - grenadiers do decent against them, fairly well too if mixed with musketeer-type unit. Verdict: HI
Skirms kite them to death due to the range difference and a HI tag. Verdict: HI
In age III cannons wreck them due to the range difference and a HI tag. Verdict: HI
They do well against buildings, in terms of siege damage/pop however only slightly better than musketeers Verdict: HI

We can see a clear conflict here. The only solution in such a paper-rock-scissors game is to define them.
Either move them to barracks, remove their 0.5 range multipliers and give them a melee multiplier against cavalry of 3.0 to make them a heavy infantry unit...
or fix/speed up their animation, slightly increase their range and remove the HI tag (no idea if it would suffice though) and leave them as a sort of poor man's artillery.


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Re: Grenadiers

Post by momuuu »

As with many of these suggestions, the esoc patch is not remaking the game. It is rebalancing the game with small tweaks so that civs are of about the same strength. Adjusting grenadiers do not help towards the goal it seems. Grenadiers are a fun unit to use, and they are actually quite good apart from their animation. Just try some gren rushing in teamgames with a teammade backing you up against cav. Its hilarious and actually pretty amazing how easily you can kill buildings and units.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by iCourt »

Definitely the most enjoyable unit to micro in the game.
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Re: Grenadiers

Post by Kaiserklein »

Imperial Noob wrote:I see it that way:
Grenadiers get destroyed not only by skirms, but also (and mainly, because I guess the majority of you talks about age II usage) by melee cavalry. I do not see how changing animation will help if 3 hussars can kill 7 or 8 of those guys with no issues.

If grens had a much quicker animation, they would be able to hit and run, which means they would be much better against hand cav. They would also do better against skirms, because atm skirms can shoot like 5 volleys before the grens get in range and throw their shit ; and when they do, their animation is so slow that skirms have enough time to run away, and get 5 free volleys again, etc. With a faster animation this wouldn't happen either
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