Improving Native Tribes (TP)

User avatar
Canada forgrin
Howdah
Posts: 1873
Joined: Apr 27, 2015
ESO: Forgrin

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by forgrin »

Ahh shucks. I'm from Vancouver, Canada, and our scene is pretty meh (did have Sfat and silentwolf up here 2 weeks ago though!). Sadly didn't have time to go to G3 either. If i'm ever down there though let's play.
https://www.twitch.tv/forgin14

"WTF WHERE ARE MY 10 FALCS" - AraGun_OP
User avatar
United States of America lesllamas
Lancer
Posts: 620
Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by lesllamas »

Yeah! Isn't a guy named Big D from Vancouver? IC's player IIRC?
User avatar
Canada forgrin
Howdah
Posts: 1873
Joined: Apr 27, 2015
ESO: Forgrin

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by forgrin »

lesllamas wrote:Yeah! Isn't a guy named Big D from Vancouver? IC's player IIRC?


Honestly I'm pretty new to the scene, name does sound familiar though :p. Our top players (BluntedObject10, Sion, Yakal) don't really travel much though, mostly just to Northwest majors. Silentwolf and bladewise come up to visit fairly often, which is the most active the scene gets.

I don't think I've really seen any icies players up here, we're really mostly falco for our top players.
https://www.twitch.tv/forgin14

"WTF WHERE ARE MY 10 FALCS" - AraGun_OP
User avatar
Serbia Atomiswave
Lancer
Posts: 794
Joined: Dec 27, 2015

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by Atomiswave »

The only way i see them improving is to lower price a bit, so they could be cost effective. But still, main problem with natives is they cost wood, which is better spent elsewhere.
User avatar
Canada forgrin
Howdah
Posts: 1873
Joined: Apr 27, 2015
ESO: Forgrin

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by forgrin »

I think just lowering all the native wood costs slightly (techs too) could go a long way. It's already 200w for a TP and ES seems to have forgotten that when making the native costs.
https://www.twitch.tv/forgin14

"WTF WHERE ARE MY 10 FALCS" - AraGun_OP
User avatar
Serbia Atomiswave
Lancer
Posts: 794
Joined: Dec 27, 2015

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by Atomiswave »

forgrin wrote:I think just lowering all the native wood costs slightly (techs too) could go a long way. It's already 200w for a TP and ES seems to have forgotten that when making the native costs.


Yeah, that's the main problem. You need to invest 200w for tp+upgrades if want them to be effective. I think even with price reduction, players will find better use for so much wood.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by momuuu »

Some native tribes have pretty interesting techs, like you can just get an extra hunt at great plains and high plains natives. While natives are fun, a universal specific boost that is actually strong just breaks the game. Germany with good ranged cav, an upgrade that makes buildings cheaper for brits, colonial anticav for dutch etc are just balancebreaking.
No Flag araulius
Musketeer
Posts: 72
Joined: Aug 22, 2015

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by araulius »

Jerom wrote:Some native tribes have pretty interesting techs, like you can just get an extra hunt at great plains and high plains natives. While natives are fun, a universal specific boost that is actually strong just breaks the game. Germany with good ranged cav, an upgrade that makes buildings cheaper for brits, colonial anticav for dutch etc are just balancebreaking.


Balance breaking? Right now they don't do anything. Nearly useless. Surely it would be better to give natives a purpose in the core of the match again?
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by deleted_user0 »

Jerom wrote:I think viable/strong natives would be detrimental for the game. Imagine dutch with a very strong ahe 2 anticav unit for example.

To me it just seems like its better to keep natives where they are at. Maaaaybe slightly buff it but seems so much effort for something that can potentially ruin gameplay on some maps.


how would it be, it increases strategical options in a strategy game. It's only good for the game. Who cares if it changes the meta =_=

anyway, nats often are already viable.

They just aren't too viable for very long because theyre designed to be "cheap" fast massable units, but they don't have superb quality. so they fall out of favor in the midgame, also because most of them lack the range and they have a poplimit that makes them hard to mass.

So a few ways to deal with that is

make a tech in the tc or something that doubles the training limit for all nat civs. that way they can remain viable past fortress if you want.
bring back the native aliance card to it's nilla value.
slightly fix some unit stats/costs or techs.

otherwise i think nats are fine really.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by deleted_user0 »

Jerom wrote:Some native tribes have pretty interesting techs, like you can just get an extra hunt at great plains and high plains natives. While natives are fun, a universal specific boost that is actually strong just breaks the game. Germany with good ranged cav, an upgrade that makes buildings cheaper for brits, colonial anticav for dutch etc are just balancebreaking.


I don't think you should make their quality better. Theyre in a good spot i think, quality/quantity wise. The problem is just that you can't make enough of them usually.
User avatar
United States of America jamesmp98
Dragoon
Posts: 218
Joined: Oct 21, 2015
ESO: jamesmp98
Location: USA

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by jamesmp98 »

Don't touch the Cree. They are OP as it is.
best german stratgey

1. age with 3 settler wagon
2. make pike
3. push
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by Kaiserklein »

Some nats are actually very decent, just people don't touch them because we don't pay attention about nats anymore. The real problem imo is the fact your opponent will instantly be aware that you took a nat post without even scouting, which kinda sucks, and the nat limit too, but some nats have truly OP techs and are underused
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
United States of America n0el
ESOC Business Team
Posts: 7068
Joined: Jul 24, 2015
ESO: jezabob
Clan: 팀 하우스

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by n0el »

The real problem imo is the fact your opponent will instantly be aware that you took a nat post without even scouting


Yes, remove icon please!
mad cuz bad
User avatar
Poland pecelot
Retired Contributor
Donator 03
Posts: 10459
Joined: Mar 25, 2015
ESO: Pezet

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by pecelot »

Jerom wrote:colonial anticav for dutch etc are just balancebreaking

pikes :?:

I agree with the previous speakers, the training limit makes native tribes a bit awkward if you want to build a 200w-TP for 8 Apache Riders (they OP, ikr).
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well you pay 200w for the TP but you save 16 pop worth of units so it's decent. Especially since you get goons in colonial, you don't need to use vils to build the TP, and you can build it before you hit colonial. Without the icon warning your opponent that you're making nats, it could be really viable, if not OP.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by deleted_user0 »

not op. but viable ye. the pop limit is still a problem though.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by Kaiserklein »

Not op ? In some mus it definitely would be. Ger mirror, I train apache without my opponent knowing it, the guy goes for the normal dop cav stuff or cav semi and apaches just rape.
Tbh even atm, I wonder if training apaches in a ger mirror wouldn't be viable. Even if the guy knows I'm training them, what is he gonna do ? Except naked ff I don't see a counter to that, xbows are so bad
In fact any civ with shit anti cav in colonial could do with goons, not just in ger mirrors
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
France iNcog
Ninja
Posts: 13236
Joined: Mar 7, 2015

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by iNcog »

Would people be interested in higher Native limit counts?
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by zoom »

umeu wrote:...

... it [naive american or jap viability] increases strategical options in a strategy game. It's only good for the game. Who cares if it changes the meta.
Goodspeed does. He is hell-bent on destroying the game without changing the meta – one patch at a time.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:Not op ? In some mus it definitely would be. Ger mirror, I train apache without my opponent knowing it, the guy goes for the normal dop cav stuff or cav semi and apaches just rape.
Tbh even atm, I wonder if training apaches in a ger mirror wouldn't be viable. Even if the guy knows I'm training them, what is he gonna do ? Except naked ff I don't see a counter to that, xbows are so bad
In fact any civ with shit anti cav in colonial could do with goons, not just in ger mirrors
I'd say the guy should have scouted – something which is very easy to do in this game, but generally isn't done nearly enough.

With that said, I am not sure what I think about removing TP alerts from the score information, let alone whether it's technically doable.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by zoom »

iNcog wrote:Would people be interested in higher Native limit counts?
I think increasing all build-limits by fifty per cent would be interesting to try. The problem though, is that half or the naive americans or japs are a bit too bad. I would generally decrease the cost of the least viable ones.
France iNcog
Ninja
Posts: 13236
Joined: Mar 7, 2015

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by iNcog »

umeu wrote:...

... it [naive american or jap viability] increases strategical options in a strategy game. It's only good for the game. Who cares if it changes the meta.


I personally agree.

I honestly think it's time to move past caring about changing the meta. If you look at LOL, they do huge-ass changes from season to season, just to keep the game fresh and engaging. Really, we should look past the "minimal changes" and really stir things up with improving the viability of some of the lesser options.

That said, not sure that natives are bad in the first place. Perhaps some are, but certainly not all; care needs to be taken as well because boosting Natives is a big boost to France as well.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by zoom »

iNcog wrote:
umeu wrote:...

... it [naive american or jap viability] increases strategical options in a strategy game. It's only good for the game. Who cares if it changes the meta.


I personally agree.

I honestly think it's time to move past caring about changing the meta. If you look at LOL, they do huge-ass changes from season to season, just to keep the game fresh and engaging. Really, we should look past the "minimal changes" and really stir things up with improving the viability of some of the lesser options.

That said, not sure that natives are bad in the first place. Perhaps some are, but certainly not all; care needs to be taken as well because boosting Natives is a big boost to France as well.
Yes, well I believe everyone but Goodspeed would agree with that.

The problem with disregarding the risk of changing the meta in general, is that doing so would result in a both unpredictable and indeterminable state of inter-civilization balance which, most likely would even be worse than RE. With scores of paid professional balancers, as well as performance data from a billion super-human japs playing the game twenty-five hours a day, this challenge is surmountable. With only an ensemble of mere puppets under its drug-using, retired mastermind intent on making people play Go by any means necessary however, it really isn't.

In the end, the overall purpose of the product is derived from the directives of its owner. Until further notice, ESOC's balancing goals remain reasonably competitive inter-civilization balance by minimal change – in number and impact alike. In light of the preceding paragraph, this is not unreasonable.

I personally do think we should aim to increase options in general, minimizing undesirable effects through appliance of science selectivity. Especially once the state of balance comes to be considered satisfactory.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by Kaiserklein »

zoom wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Not op ? In some mus it definitely would be. Ger mirror, I train apache without my opponent knowing it, the guy goes for the normal dop cav stuff or cav semi and apaches just rape.
Tbh even atm, I wonder if training apaches in a ger mirror wouldn't be viable. Even if the guy knows I'm training them, what is he gonna do ? Except naked ff I don't see a counter to that, xbows are so bad
In fact any civ with shit anti cav in colonial could do with goons, not just in ger mirrors
I'd say the guy should have scouted – something which is very easy to do in this game, but generally isn't done nearly enough.

With that said, I am not sure what I think about removing TP alerts from the score information, let alone whether it's technically doable.

You can't scout both all the nat posts and your opponent's base (more important), with most civs... Also a lot of civs have to take a TP while aging
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Improving Native Tribes (TP)

Post by Garja »

Native are a side feature. Sometimes they're quite useful, sometimes they're irrelevant. I think it's fine.
Image Image Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV