Remake Tulip Speculation

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United States of America dutchdude117
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Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by dutchdude117 »

I was thinking of ways to buff Dutch to possibly balance them for 1v1 matches, so for team games, I don't know if this is fair.

It is known that the Dutch have the worst late game economy in the game, and therefore the Dutch player is on a clock to beat their enemy before he can develop an economy stronger than the Dutch players. The main reason the Dutch have this issue is that they are limited to only 50 settlers (which is fair earlier in the game where a Bank is worth about 4 settlers), BUT as the game goes on and more setters are built and more settler gather rate techs are bought and upgrade cards are sent, the Dutch Banks become less comparable to settlers, and the Dutch economy is left is a horrible place with 50 settlers and +10-20 more settler equivalent in Banks. Your Enemy could have up to 99 villagers (unless Japan, but let's ignore that), while you are stuck with effectively 60-70 villagers, but those last extra 10-20 villagers cost 700 resources a piece to make.

My solution to this is to make the Tulip Speculation card give the Dutch player a way to keep up in late game economy, here are the 2 major points of the idea.
1) Calculate the average late game gather rate of economies of other civs with all common gather rate upgrades techs and cards applied and make this some what of a standard.
2) Using this average make the Tulip Speculation card give bonuses to Dutch economy to match this standard, in what ever way makes a sense but also is fair and balanced.

Forcing the Dutch player to send an age 4 card just to match his opponents seems like a good way to offset the good early game economy that they have, but further detriments could be added if is not enough.

My first thought for answering part 2) is to make Tulip Speculation do this:
"For every bank you have, your settler cap is increased by 2-3"

This could allow the Dutch player to keep up in economy, but the numbers may have to adjusted a little bit, depending on what our numbers for part 1) came out to be. Also remember that the Dutch player would have to build those addition settlers, he would not just be getting them for free, so just to be allowed to build those extra settlers, he has to build a building for 700 resources and then buy the addition settlers for 100 resources each.
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by dutchdude117 »

Tell me your thoughts please. Does this make any sense or am I just a crazy Dutch player
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by lesllamas »

TBH, the strangest thing about tulip speculation right now is that it's an age 4 card that gives less of a bonus than the two age 1 cards. It just doesn't thematically fit. It's like being able to ship 5 huss in colonial, but only 3 huss in fortress. That said, I don't think Tulip Speculation is the place to look for balancing dutch. If the game gets to a point where both players are at max eco, Dutch should have had a significant window to win the game--their mid game is just insane. So fixing their late game won't really impact their balance in the right ways IMO.
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by abbadan »

Why not just make a card in age 2 that allows the Dutch to raise their village pop by 8 and another card in age 3 that allows them to raise their village pop by 12 and an age 4 card taht allows them to raise it another 15? Their MAX VILL POP would be 85, but they would've needed to sacrifice 3 cards to get their. And along the way they choose how much they want to give for pop, because theyre multiple cards.
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by tibia »

just make the coin upgrade on the capitol affect banks :P ( and remove the +2 bank pherhaps )
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by zoom »

tibia wrote:just make the coin upgrade on the capitol affect banks :P ( and remove the +2 bank pherhaps )

I suspect designers tested this and realized it's too strong.
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by tibia »

then just reducse the 50% to 30% wolololo or something like that
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by _DB_ »

dutchdude117 wrote:"For every bank you have, your settler cap is increased by 2-3"


This! Would be a nice change imo.
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by momuuu »

lesllamas wrote:TBH, the strangest thing about tulip speculation right now is that it's an age 4 card that gives less of a bonus than the two age 1 cards. It just doesn't thematically fit. It's like being able to ship 5 huss in colonial, but only 3 huss in fortress. That said, I don't think Tulip Speculation is the place to look for balancing dutch. If the game gets to a point where both players are at max eco, Dutch should have had a significant window to win the game--their mid game is just insane. So fixing their late game won't really impact their balance in the right ways IMO.

Meh, that'd mean they are theoretically OP. Its at least not really the experience I have with Dutch.

I dont think tullip speculation should give them an eco equal to the average 99 vill eco. But at least it should be decent, say 75 vills or something. Maybe you can up that a little bit with the ahe 5 capitol upgrade.
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by _DB_ »

if japan can upgrade their shrines by that 500-500-500 upgrade, we should do the nearly same effect for dutch, i mean, give bank an upgrade in age 4 which cost 500-500-500 and boost them by like 2.5x or 3x to balance their late game eco or just make tulip speculation cost like 1200 wood and it makes banks gather twice as faster

Won't be too lame because dutch dont have ashi or shogun like japan
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by britishmusketeer »

dutch problem really isn't the settler limit
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by thebritish »

I am going to quore myself:

thebritish wrote:I think Dutch should get their banks reverted to 4 banks.
Bank of Roterdam and Amsterdam to give +1 bank limit and 10% gather rate.
Make banks cost 300 food and 300 wood (instead of 350 food and 350 wood). Nerf their gold gather rate to 2.5g/s instead of being 2.75g/s.
Make Tulip Speculation give 100% bank gather rate while increasing their cost by +50% or by +100%
Increase vill to 60.
This way Dutch can make more banks from start (being cheaper), and in later stage, they can keep up with the other civs eco by getting +100% gather rate for banks.
Also, the 2 cards which give +10% (20% total), will give the banks gather rate of +0.5g/s which will make them to gather 3g/s instead of 2.75g/s while being cheaper (this would require the 2 cards to be sent tho.)
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by lesllamas »

Jerom wrote:
lesllamas wrote:TBH, the strangest thing about tulip speculation right now is that it's an age 4 card that gives less of a bonus than the two age 1 cards. It just doesn't thematically fit. It's like being able to ship 5 huss in colonial, but only 3 huss in fortress. That said, I don't think Tulip Speculation is the place to look for balancing dutch. If the game gets to a point where both players are at max eco, Dutch should have had a significant window to win the game--their mid game is just insane. So fixing their late game won't really impact their balance in the right ways IMO.

Meh, that'd mean they are theoretically OP. Its at least not really the experience I have with Dutch.

I dont think tullip speculation should give them an eco equal to the average 99 vill eco. But at least it should be decent, say 75 vills or something. Maybe you can up that a little bit with the ahe 5 capitol upgrade.


I think you misunderstand me. I think we can both agree that it's dumb for an age 4 card to provide a smaller bonus than an age 1 card, for one. After that, my point is that Dutch isn't a weak civ because they can't compete in the super late game. Their deficiencies in most MU's (as I understand it) are pretty much all relevant in the first 15 minutes of a game. Buffing them on the back end I think would just exacerbate the problem they currently have on EP with being insane in team and hardly changed in 1v1.
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by deuxballesman »

zoom wrote:
tibia wrote:just make the coin upgrade on the capitol affect banks :P ( and remove the +2 bank pherhaps )

I suspect designers tested this and realized it's too strong.

That's still the case on nilla I think. And it's good but not OP
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by momuuu »

lesllamas wrote:
Jerom wrote:
lesllamas wrote:TBH, the strangest thing about tulip speculation right now is that it's an age 4 card that gives less of a bonus than the two age 1 cards. It just doesn't thematically fit. It's like being able to ship 5 huss in colonial, but only 3 huss in fortress. That said, I don't think Tulip Speculation is the place to look for balancing dutch. If the game gets to a point where both players are at max eco, Dutch should have had a significant window to win the game--their mid game is just insane. So fixing their late game won't really impact their balance in the right ways IMO.

Meh, that'd mean they are theoretically OP. Its at least not really the experience I have with Dutch.

I dont think tullip speculation should give them an eco equal to the average 99 vill eco. But at least it should be decent, say 75 vills or something. Maybe you can up that a little bit with the ahe 5 capitol upgrade.


I think you misunderstand me. I think we can both agree that it's dumb for an age 4 card to provide a smaller bonus than an age 1 card, for one. After that, my point is that Dutch isn't a weak civ because they can't compete in the super late game. Their deficiencies in most MU's (as I understand it) are pretty much all relevant in the first 15 minutes of a game. Buffing them on the back end I think would just exacerbate the problem they currently have on EP with being insane in team and hardly changed in 1v1.

I think Dutch has problems that are more complicated than what you present here. Ive kinda stopped playing them in re team games because their eco is just too weak lategame that you've lost if the game goes on for too long. They have like a 70 setller eco that requires 4 cards (bank of rotterdam, amsterdam, tullip speculation and religious freedom) to even be that. That btw also means your military is slowed down by 10%. Im sure bank of rotterdam and amsterdam arent ever even worth it, they are shitty cards really (plantation or mill cards are so much better).

To be honest, I think Dutch lategame eco is fine in EP now. Its pleasant to play dutch because you can still play on after 30 or so minutes. The problem is that EP also buffs the Dutch peak at around 15 minutes via primarily the 6 banks and also kinda the 2 bank cards. If you move the effect of the bank cards towards tullip speculation, dutch eco would be a little bit too strong (as it frees up 2 card slots) but at a little less I think it'd be a very welcome change really.
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by lesllamas »

I still think you misunderstand me. When you're balancing for 1v1 (which the OP said he was trying to do), fixing Dutch's late game eco just isn't going to make a meaningful difference. From my original comment: " I don't think Tulip Speculation is the place to look for balancing dutch". I'm not saying it's wrong to give Dutch a better end game eco (for the purpose of teams). I'm saying that trying to fix Dutch in 1v1 by buffing end game eco is just not the right place to start. It would be like balancing all of Iro's age 4 cards on RE when the real problem is apparent in most games BEFORE you ever reach that point.
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by sebnan12 »

btw dutch eco way better than sioux just saying :)
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by momuuu »

lesllamas wrote:I still think you misunderstand me. When you're balancing for 1v1 (which the OP said he was trying to do), fixing Dutch's late game eco just isn't going to make a meaningful difference. From my original comment: " I don't think Tulip Speculation is the place to look for balancing dutch". I'm not saying it's wrong to give Dutch a better end game eco (for the purpose of teams). I'm saying that trying to fix Dutch in 1v1 by buffing end game eco is just not the right place to start. It would be like balancing all of Iro's age 4 cards on RE when the real problem is apparent in most games BEFORE you ever reach that point.

oh yeah, this change mostly makes sense for 3v3, or dutch lategame in general, simply because dutch is somewhat handicapped in that stage of the game.
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by thebritish »

Jerom wrote:
lesllamas wrote:I still think you misunderstand me. When you're balancing for 1v1 (which the OP said he was trying to do), fixing Dutch's late game eco just isn't going to make a meaningful difference. From my original comment: " I don't think Tulip Speculation is the place to look for balancing dutch". I'm not saying it's wrong to give Dutch a better end game eco (for the purpose of teams). I'm saying that trying to fix Dutch in 1v1 by buffing end game eco is just not the right place to start. It would be like balancing all of Iro's age 4 cards on RE when the real problem is apparent in most games BEFORE you ever reach that point.

oh yeah, this change mostly makes sense for 3v3, or dutch lategame in general, simply because dutch is somewhat handicapped in that stage of the game.

Thats true, but the fact that they can have 150 pop pop for military kinda buffs them if played the right way. (Imagine having 6 imperial cannons from the factories guarded by 100 ruyters)
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by momuuu »

thebritish wrote:
Jerom wrote:
lesllamas wrote:I still think you misunderstand me. When you're balancing for 1v1 (which the OP said he was trying to do), fixing Dutch's late game eco just isn't going to make a meaningful difference. From my original comment: " I don't think Tulip Speculation is the place to look for balancing dutch". I'm not saying it's wrong to give Dutch a better end game eco (for the purpose of teams). I'm saying that trying to fix Dutch in 1v1 by buffing end game eco is just not the right place to start. It would be like balancing all of Iro's age 4 cards on RE when the real problem is apparent in most games BEFORE you ever reach that point.

oh yeah, this change mostly makes sense for 3v3, or dutch lategame in general, simply because dutch is somewhat handicapped in that stage of the game.

Thats true, but the fact that they can have 150 pop pop for military kinda buffs them if played the right way. (Imagine having 6 imperial cannons from the factories guarded by 100 ruyters)

Yes that's true, that's something I mention a few posts earlier; They certainly shouldnt have the equivalent of a 100 vill economy, but as of now they hardly have the equivalent of a 60 vill economy in imperial.
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by lesllamas »

Jerom wrote:
thebritish wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Thats true, but the fact that they can have 150 pop pop for military kinda buffs them if played the right way. (Imagine having 6 imperial cannons from the factories guarded by 100 ruyters)

Yes that's true, that's something I mention a few posts earlier; They certainly shouldnt have the equivalent of a 100 vill economy, but as of now they hardly have the equivalent of a 60 vill economy in imperial.


How do you figure this math? 50 vills+10 banks. Each bank is like 3 vills, right?
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by momuuu »

lesllamas wrote:
Jerom wrote:Yes that's true, that's something I mention a few posts earlier; They certainly shouldnt have the equivalent of a 100 vill economy, but as of now they hardly have the equivalent of a 60 vill economy in imperial.


How do you figure this math? 50 vills+10 banks. Each bank is like 3 vills, right?

They're ~4 vills unupgraded I think, maybe 4.5 vills. Thing is, I dont even think we can count it as 10 banks (with tullip speculation) truly, as you spend 4 cards on that. 4 cards that could've been mill/plantation upgrades really. Also, Im pretty sure they reduce to next to nothing when you have a few coin upgrades send, researched and then put the imperial 50% techs on top of that. Maybe its like 65 vill economy or something, but it surely isn't much (at least, it doesnt appear to be great when I end up in lategame with dutch).
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by lesllamas »

With 4 cards you get 10 banks, at 3.16 gold/second. So with 4 cards you get 31.6 gold/second. Even with all plantation cards and imperial techs, I'm pretty sure vills don't gather on plantations at a much greater rate than 1/second. So the banks should essentially be worth 30ish FU plantation vills. Consider what you're saying. You're saying that banks account for 15 vills on coin. This is insane. There's no way 15 vills on coin in any circumstance gather anywhere close to 2.0/second, much less on plantations.

Like, it's still a bad end game economy. But there's no way you can say Dutch with 10 banks and 50 vills won't outgather 65 brit vills by a decent margin on farms and plants in the end game.


^And those are just RE values. On EP you get those values by sending two cards--religious freedom and tulip speculation. If you send one of the age 1 cards instead of tulip speculation, you get even slightly better numbers. So all you need to invest to reach ~33 gold/second is an age 1 and an age 2 card. If you invest 4 cards, you're looking at something closer to 40 gold/second.
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Re: Remake Tulip Speculation

Post by princeofkabul »

dutch is already broken in EP 3v3's, if you want to play some imba dutch go der.
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