EP 1.2: A balance update

[Hazza54321]

These changes seem fine to me, just be careful with the Russia buffs when Harry's around. I am quite surprised to see no nerf to French late-game though, I thought they are considered even more OP than the other civs you're nerfing here?

What about walls? Ceperate cost of straight walls and pillars?

Uh, separate cost for pillars?
1) I think this would be very hard to implement, bordering on impossible.
2) The proper way to make walls is without pillars anyway, so I actually don't understand what would be the point of this change at all.

lol why does everyone know my name

[Mimsy for President]

Germans : Not sure nerfing uhlan stats is the best idea. 3sw could be replaced by 2sw. 4v+2 uhlans is not what I'd call bad shipment.
Chinese : How about Intervention and the Chinese monk ?
Related with French : Do the same thing with the Sioux explorer. He is not particularly good vs explorers but with the support of a converted guardian, there is no chance your explorer survives.
Iro : It seems that you didn't really look into the issue for Iro. I might be wrong.

In the last part : "Mass cavalry" ? Wasn't it all about "Thoroughbreds" ? (see stanley_winston's thread)

[_NiceKING_]

Now treaty will be more imbalanced

[lesllamas]

With regards to Germany, I'm not certain that a stats change to Uhlans is going to turn out well. I'm not saying that they're particularly balanced right now, but they're a fragile unit with regards to sheer stats. I think even minor changes to their stats might drastically change their balance. With an EP team that's only just now getting started on the second iteration of balance (not to be disparaging--just realistic about how much work people with lives of their own can put into a pet project), I think it may be better to balance around the linchpin than to change the linchpin itself.

[Kaiserklein]

The changes are nice. Not sure about nerfing uhlans tho, I'd rather see shipments nerf (3 sw + 1 uhlan, 700w + 1 uhlan, 8 uhlans 8 uhlans, 8 skirms + 2 uhlans for example)

if u fight 10 skirm vs 10 musk u dont lose a single skirm, i dont wanna say this should be possible with lb also, but atleast u should win that fight, maybe u do, idk really, but its close i guess.

10 skirms is more or less 11 lbs, with your 22 range you will have like 7-8 lbs left when all musks are dead, it's not really close

[fingolfin]

Dont change french its a perfectly well rounded civ and i think you should buff japan a bit

[fei123456]

Germans
a stats nerf to uhlans
disagreee. uhlan itself is not a very cost-effective unit. melee cav usually wants higher hp while uhlan is fragile. also they cost too much gold.
i suggest change age3/age4 shipment bonus to 2 uhlans.

Chinese
Currently, Chinese herdables already fatten 50% slower than usual before fortress age, we are looking to lower this further.
herd animals not only buff china, india and japan get tons of benifit from them too. we should just dont make so many new maps with herd animals, as herd animal is imbalance anyway.
Perhaps a tweak to the train time would be enough.
agree. but would you please buff their age2 units a little too? china is definitely not a top civ in current meta.

French
removing native scout snare.
200% agree. besides, french is strong not because they're quite strong themselves, it's because other civs have too many weaknesses while french dont.

Russians
a small decrease in vill batch cost, and perhaps a buff to fortress age unit shipments.
agree. auto-upgrade strelet (and gurkha) is also a cool idea.

Spanish
buffing unit shipments, but we are also keen on adding economic options in both colonial and fortress by buffing missionaries which are unique to Spain and could add a new dimension to the civ.
sounds good.

Iroquois
simply reverting the War Chief aura change and the Aenna cost change.
let them train light cannon in age 3 will work

Dutch
increasing bank build XP bounty, a small buff to fortress age unit shipments and decreasing bank limit from 6 to 5. The discovery age "Bank of Rotterdam" and "Bank of Amsterdam" shipments will be restored to give +1 bank limit.
bank is still too expensive, and i would rather reduce their cost to 300f/w or 320 f/w.

[thebritish]

The changes are nice. Not sure about nerfing uhlans tho, I'd rather see shipments nerf (3 sw + 1 uhlan, 700w + 1 uhlan, 8 uhlans 8 uhlans, 8 skirms + 2 uhlans for example)

Show hidden quotes

no they are not

Longbowmen, I presume?

yes

if u fight 10 skirm vs 10 musk u dont lose a single skirm, i dont wanna say this should be possible with lb also, but atleast u should win that fight, maybe u do, idk really, but its close i guess.

10 skirms is more or less 11 lbs, with your 22 range you will have like 7-8 lbs left when all musks are dead, it's not really close

yeah right.
95 HP and 17 attack with 1.25x multiplier is 21 attack max for longbowman.
120 HP with 17 attack and 2x multiplier is 34 attack for skirms.

OP unit balance when musks have 150 HP and 23 attack..

[Mimsy for President]

The changes are nice. Not sure about nerfing uhlans tho, I'd rather see shipments nerf (3 sw + 1 uhlan, 700w + 1 uhlan, 8 uhlans 8 uhlans, 8 skirms + 2 uhlans for example)

lol those "nerfs"

[zoom]

will these balance changes be cognizant of treaty play? looking at a few of the proposed fixes, i think some of them might have a negative impact on the treaty mode, which i figure is fine so long as the patch is selectively seeking to improve supremacy gameplay. i'd like to know if the EP team thinks there should be a dichotomy between the two gamemodes balance, i.e. not attempting to balance both on the same patch

If I recall correctly we would gladly consider that if the treaty community would make an effort to suggest changes that we could implement without affecting supremacy in a negative way. Until that happens, the answer is no as far as I'm aware.

[jsimons1289]

There's always a difficult balance to be struck between how balance changes play out in different game formats. The Dutch change last time worked to help 1v1, but in team they become extremely strong in the mid game.

The German change is interesting. The problem is the ability for German's to so easily mass Uhlans, with such high hand attack, it becomes really hard to cost-effectively beat a mass uhlan/shipped skirm combo in early age 3. I'm interested to see how much of a nerf you're suggesting to Uhlans - how will a 5 Uhlan semi-FF (so 7 Uhlans) compete now with 5 Hussars? If 5 Hussars are going to easily win this, this is likely to leave German's in a difficult position in an FF position. Too much of a change could change the meta to more age II play from Germany.

Russia - I'm sure a small decrease in villager cost was discussed in the past at some point? Haven't really been active in years, so this may have been quite some time ago. As far as I remember the view was to limit/remove idle TC time when doing a 14 vil age up (which is pretty much a necessity in 1v1), and boost early age 2 economy (always making vills and unit production). I guess the question is how strong does this make a Russian contain; it's already strong on certain maps and against certain food heavy civs.

The most annoying thing for me with Russia in age III is Strelets range. It forces you to make cav (after cannon shipment) to counter any other RI unit because of the range difference. Usually the sheer number of units with a 'right click all units into enemy army' helps at lower levels, but with more and more walls being used nowadays, a ranged infantry and goon combo can be pretty hard to beat. Part of the reason for early pressure, and the ability for Russia to be competitive late age II, is to avoid getting in these situations. It's still pretty annoying to be hit and run all game long by skirms/yumi/cassadors etc. though.

French - I think most people know more standard (and strong BOs) for French than any other European civ, which plays into why they're winning so many MU's. Looking at Sam's build, you have 4 market upgrades at 6 minutes, 2 military buildings, and 5 huss/5 musk. This is a well known, and strong, BO, which requires good macro but uses all resources efficiently. I'm still not sure there's a set BO that the majority of players follow to counter this. For example, with Brits or Germans, there's a set card order, but exact BOs are less known by the community in general.

Just putting a few ideas out there for discussion!

[zoom]

Germans : Not sure nerfing uhlan stats is the best idea. 3sw could be replaced by 2sw. 4v+2 uhlans is not what I'd call bad shipment.
Chinese : How about Intervention and the Chinese monk ?
Related with French : Do the same thing with the Sioux explorer. He is not particularly good vs explorers but with the support of a converted guardian, there is no chance your explorer survives.
Iro : It seems that you didn't really look into the issue for Iro. I might be wrong.

In the last part : "Mass cavalry" ? Wasn't it all about "Thoroughbreds" ? (see stanley_winston's thread)

Thoroughbreds is not a problem in the least. If anything, it's average at best for an Industrial Age card. Mass Cavalry being 50% on the other hand is broken and benefits French more than other civilizations.

[zoom]

yeah right.
95 HP and 17 attack with 1.25x multiplier is 21 attack max for longbowman.
120 HP with 17 attack and 2x multiplier is 34 attack for skirms.

OP unit balance when musks have 150 HP and 23 attack..

How many fucking times do you need to be told to understand that Longbowmen fire twice as fast as Skirmishers?

[Kaiserklein]

In the last part : "Mass cavalry" ? Wasn't it all about "Thoroughbreds" ? (see stanley_winston's thread)

I think they really mean mass cavalry, because this shit is OP, not only mixed with thoroughbreds, but overall. It's -50%, while infantry is only -25%... Ok it's twice more expansive, but obviously paying 400g more isn't a big deal at all in late game, while getting -25% training time is a huge deal.
For example we all know how you can get instant cav spam on GP (or any lakota map, even inca map). It would be nice if this didn't happen, because it's too OP for civs with good late game cav imo. For example, if mass cavalry granted only -25%, you wouldn't get instant cav on inca maps. And with a nerf to the lakota upgrade, you wouldn't get instant cav on lakota maps either.
What exactly is wrong with thoroughbreds ? -15% cost isn't that incredible, it's just the fact it enables you to get instant cuirs. But if you nerf mass cav, you don't have this problem anymore.

The changes are nice. Not sure about nerfing uhlans tho, I'd rather see shipments nerf (3 sw + 1 uhlan, 700w + 1 uhlan, 8 uhlans 8 uhlans, 8 skirms + 2 uhlans for example)

lol these "nerfs"

? Explain then. You think these nerfs aren't big enough ? Losing 2 uhlans in colonial enables some other civs like france to compete with the german cav mass (6 uhlans vs 5 huss is way closer than 7 uhlans vs 5 huss). So it's a huge nerf already. Then nerfing the key fortress shipments, 8 skirms + 3 uhlans and 9 uhlans, will nerf german early fortress a lot in some match ups, namely those where you have to defend a timing push. 1 less uhlan to cover your skirms, at the most intense timing of the game, is a big deal. Also I said "for example" so you can add other nerfs, like 3 ww + 2 uhlans

yeah right.
95 HP and 17 attack with 1.25x multiplier is 21 attack max for longbowman.
120 HP with 17 attack and 2x multiplier is 34 attack for skirms.

OP unit balance when musks have 150 HP and 23 attack..

You don't know what you're talking about tho. Firstly, skirms have 15 attack, not 17. Then, lbs have twice more ROF than skirms. So if you calculate it that way, lbs have 42 attack vs HI, while skirms only have 30. And lbs have 34 attack against other stuff, while skirms have 15... Lbs have 2 more range, and they are cheaper. They are available in age 2, while skirms are usually available in age 3. Their only drawback is having a bit less hp.
So you see, if we calculate your way, lbs are insanely op and skirms are shit. But the point is skirms can kite, that's what makes them so good overall... Lbs are a static unit, they can't hit and run. That's why they are worse against HI, because skirms get much more free shots by hit and running, but better against everything else because of their much higher dps (arguably not better vs cav because they can't hit and run it, not sure tho, they still have much more dps vs cav than skirms).

But o wait, I'm not part of the ESOC team, I'm not allowed to talk to you

[Mimsy for President]

Germans : Not sure nerfing uhlan stats is the best idea. 3sw could be replaced by 2sw. 4v+2 uhlans is not what I'd call bad shipment.
Chinese : How about Intervention and the Chinese monk ?
Related with French : Do the same thing with the Sioux explorer. He is not particularly good vs explorers but with the support of a converted guardian, there is no chance your explorer survives.
Iro : It seems that you didn't really look into the issue for Iro. I might be wrong.

In the last part : "Mass cavalry" ? Wasn't it all about "Thoroughbreds" ? (see stanley_winston's thread)

Thoroughbreds is not a problem in the least. If anything, it's average at best for an Industrial Age card. Mass Cavalry being 50% on the other hand is broken and benefits French more than other civilizations.

Then the other civs shouldn't be penalized if the problem is the gendarms.

[thebritish]

yeah right.
95 HP and 17 attack with 1.25x multiplier is 21 attack max for longbowman.
120 HP with 17 attack and 2x multiplier is 34 attack for skirms.

OP unit balance when musks have 150 HP and 23 attack..

How many fucking times do you need to be told to understand that Longbowmen fire twice as fast as Skirmishers?

thats not an excuse.
For example, even Aennas are better than longbowmans because they have 2x vs HI (they have the same rof as longbowmans too). ANd last, but not least Iro even has the best skirmishers in the game while longbowmans are the only unit which brits can use to counter HI.

Also, if you really wanna see how OP the multiplier is try 1 nilla skirm vs 1 nilla lbow and see how the lbow will get raped..

[zoom]

It's no excuse, it's a fucking fact. Your comparison is factually incorrect.

[deuxballesman]

Nice proposed changes!
Sioux: Teepees give a small eco boost like 5% and can be salvaged for half the cost
Ports: 80f vil reverted to something like ressources last 20% longer
Spain: Shipments come 10% faster

None of the above is primordial but I think they can be interesting.

Please don't allow thebritish in this particular thread it's gonna be polluted by lb are not strong enough flood

[zoom]

Germans : Not sure nerfing uhlan stats is the best idea. 3sw could be replaced by 2sw. 4v+2 uhlans is not what I'd call bad shipment.
Chinese : How about Intervention and the Chinese monk ?
Related with French : Do the same thing with the Sioux explorer. He is not particularly good vs explorers but with the support of a converted guardian, there is no chance your explorer survives.
Iro : It seems that you didn't really look into the issue for Iro. I might be wrong.

In the last part : "Mass cavalry" ? Wasn't it all about "Thoroughbreds" ? (see stanley_winston's thread)

Thoroughbreds is not a problem in the least. If anything, it's average at best for an Industrial Age card. Mass Cavalry being 50% on the other hand is broken and benefits French more than other civilizations.

Then the other civs shouldn't be penalized if the problem is the gendarms.

The main problem is the improvement Mass Cavalry. It is a problem for all civilizations. Cuirassiers are an issue beyond that but to a lesser degree. Like I've said so many times before, the solution (apart from fixing Mass Cavalry) is standardizing unit statistics to the Colonial Age base so that broken scaling is removed.

[Atomiswave]

I guess I am the only one who agrees with uhlan nerf. Its pretty safe way to nerf Ger, without compromising civs identity. Only one question remains, what is going to be nerfed? Hp, dam, speed, animation speed? If you ask me hp shouldn't be touched, because uhlans are already feeble enough.

[Mimsy for President]

In the last part : "Mass cavalry" ? Wasn't it all about "Thoroughbreds" ? (see stanley_winston's thread)

I think they really mean mass cavalry, because this shit is OP, not only mixed with thoroughbreds, but overall. It's -50%, while infantry is only -25%... Ok it's twice more expansive, but obviously paying 400g more isn't a big deal at all in late game, while getting -25% training time is a huge deal.
For example we all know how you can get instant cav spam on GP (or any lakota map, even inca map). It would be nice if this didn't happen, because it's too OP for civs with good late game cav imo. For example, if mass cavalry granted only -25%, you wouldn't get instant cav on inca maps. And with a nerf to the lakota upgrade, you wouldn't get instant cav on lakota maps either.
What exactly is wrong with thoroughbreds ? -15% cost isn't that incredible, it's just the fact it enables you to get instant cuirs. But if you nerf mass cav, you don't have this problem anymore.

Actually I have no problem with thoroughbreds. The way French rules in late game is somewhat a reward because let's say it, it's the most boring civ to play with because everything is standard (except cdbs & the scout). I didn't know about 50% and 25%. Then I approve the nerf on Mass cavalry.

The changes are nice. Not sure about nerfing uhlans tho, I'd rather see shipments nerf (3 sw + 1 uhlan, 700w + 1 uhlan, 8 uhlans 8 uhlans, 8 skirms + 2 uhlans for example)

lol these "nerfs"

? Explain then. You think these nerfs aren't big enough ? Losing 2 uhlans in colonial enables some other civs like france to compete with the german cav mass (6 uhlans vs 5 huss is way closer than 7 uhlans vs 5 huss). So it's a huge nerf already. Then nerfing the key fortress shipments, 8 skirms + 3 uhlans and 9 uhlans, will nerf german early fortress a lot in some match ups, namely those where you have to defend a timing push. 1 less uhlan to cover your skirms, at the most intense timing of the game, is a big deal. Also I said "for example" so you can add other nerfs, like 3 ww + 2 uhlans

I think 3sw+1uhlan is much better than 2sw+2uhlans. Just compare 2sw+2uhlans with 4 cdb and 5 vills : it's very hard to tell which shipment is better whereas 3sw (without uhlans) are clearly better than 5 vills which are slightly better than 4 cdb. Whether you get free uhlans or not, 3sw are still better.
Also that -1 uhlan penalty ; I really doubt it has a major repercussion in the game.

God, it's so hard to quote and answer on the new version of this site !

[momuuu]

I think gendarmes are still going to be too strong personally. Make them scale on colonial stats.

Think the 1v1 balance with these changes might be looking pretty good. I'm sad to not see some real france nerfs as they are more a top civ than china is imo. If this patch is implemented they are probably going to be the real top civ, maybe germany might still be strong (hard to judge a 10 hp nerf). Spain might get extremely strong aswell as I think they're kinda underrated atm. Personally think the french scout is going to be boring right now, which sucks. But well, seems popular.

[fightinfrenchman]

Gendarmes definitely should be nerfed, I personally think thoroughbreds should just be eliminated entirely at the very least.

[_NiceKING_]

Gendarmes definitely should be nerfed, I personally think thoroughbreds should just be eliminated entirely at the very least.

and splash damage should be reduced to 1.

[momuuu]

cuirasiers dont appear to be too strong in 1v1 though, which is interesting (and quite confusing actually). I guess the fact that they scale on veteran stats makes quite a big difference.