EP 1.2: A balance update

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New Zealand zoom
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by zoom »

iCourt wrote:
zoom wrote:Note to self: Never share anything with iCourt that you want kept secret.


The original post by Mart states this... People just can't seem to read? I never have said what the changes would be exactly. But yes I'm perhaps a bit more transparent than the rest of the team. I think they should have an idea what we are looking at. Any decent player probably has some general idea what we are looking into buffing or nerfing. Patch team keeps it private so they don't get flamed for "ruining" a civ I'd imagine.

No, we just keep it private to perpetuate the manklocraty.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by iCourt »

Goodspeed wrote:Too weak

Russians
It seems clear that Russia isn't quite up to par right now. Their lacking early economy and awkward semi-FF put them in a tough spot as the meta evolves into TP-abusing semi-FF territory. Russia's options may not be properly explored yet however, so we don't want to overbuff them. Currently we are looking at a small decrease in vill batch cost, and perhaps a buff to fortress age unit shipments.


Russia is getting buffed. I've never touched on specifics. I've felt I've been fairly vague so far. :)
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by iNcog »

zoom wrote:Note to self: Never share anything with iCourt that you want kept secret.


no flammen

when is the patch coming out?
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by medinos »

zoom wrote:Note to self: Never share anything with iCourt that you want kept secret.

A note for the community I never met a nicer person like @iCourt for as long as I have been on this site..
This guy is really awesome :)
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by g06092 »

Garja wrote:Why not 15 coss shipment now that we are at it. Seriously, 6 coss is pretty much the same of 5 huss. 5 CA is about the same of 5 goons. 17 strels is about the same of 8 skirms. 6 opri is the equivalent of 5 vet cav of other civs (tho with a diffrent purpose) and 2 cannons = 2 cannons. Then there is 1000w, 1000g, 9manchu and royal mint + refrigeration. With 3 cards Russia get 3 full upped units (most civs need 4 cards to do that...when they can).
I think people are so wrong in judging the potential of Russia, a civ that on paper has exactly all the features that make a civ strong in 1v1.
Next patch Russia will be marginally buffed, while top civs such as Germans, French and China will be marginally nerfed. This should narrow the gap between them and Russia (and other UP civs), making stuff such as colonial timings more effective. Against everything else (ok maybe not otto on TP map) Russia already has chances of winning with a good build and the buffs of the next patch can only make things better for the civ.

First off "Having a chance" doesn't mean competitive. Yeah 17 strelets are almost the same as 8 skirms but strelets are usually much more effective, don't auto-upgrade and they are supposed to cost 47.5 resources and as only strelet shipment it should 20-21. 6 cossacks is 900 resources which most civs also have but they also have a 1000 resources shipments available too like 5 hussars. Also most civs can mass one unit from shipments while Russia has only one of each which makes it also predictable after 1-2 shipments in Fortress (in case sending unit shipments is viable as Russia). And don't tell me how good is the 800 resources shipment of 5 CA. It's always instantly paid off to send unit upgrade card if you have 20+ units ( a bit more for strelets) and with Russia you should be able to have. And for the upgrade shipments - well Russia should have some bonuses after all. If you do the math you'll end up that Russia's units (excluding strelets) are so slightly more cost effective without upgrades that it doesn't make and difference at all especially with their weak early economy.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by g06092 »

forgrin wrote:
g06092 wrote:Russia has weak economy and an age up to Fotress makes their only economic bonus kick in even later. The weak economy makes them slower in everything. Several one-time only bufs like 2 musketeers, one more cossack and so on won't make almost any difference. What Russia needs is something that makes them get competitive earlier in Fortress (making them faster, give them some tempo). Russia is really good in Fortress at that point when they have Boyars, Veteran upgrades, Strelet and Cav combat and their units get really effective. By the time you have all these upgrades they have a decent economy too. The problem is those bonuses kick in too late for Russia to be competitive. By the time you catch up with vill count the resources on the map are at their end. If as Russia you send unit shipments you delay even more the time when Russia's bonuses start making significant difference. In Fortress Russia need to do 3 Veteran upgrades (or Church card and 1000w) for their units (not counting grenadiers). All their unit shipments are one of each different unit type and you generally don't want to use army without veteran upgrades because it's just 70% worth (and talking about cost effective units turns in nonsense). The only way you can give them tempo is with early economy bonus which I already discussed earlier in this thread viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5247&start=200


Why not just decrease the cost of the church tech to like, 600w?

If you saw my post that I linked you'll notice that's one of the things I suggested. 500-600 wood seems reasonable to me too.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by fei123456 »

6 cossack 6 oprichnik: 900 resources
11 musk: 825
9 halb: 844
5 cav archer: 800
17 strelet: 808
seems garja has a poor math.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by medinos »

Garja just doesn't likes Russia to get a buff dunno why..
He never showed this much hate towards a civ like Russia...
I mean holy crap...
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Hazza54321 »

buffing their unit shipments is the wrong way of doing things imo , just they dont have a smooth semi build, and they have to upgrade everything and have wood for bhs and strelets and houses and they cant afford to send 1kw for example otherwise they lose to early -mid fortress timing. its just too much on their early fragile economy to gather the wood for the things mentioned above.
also, their army just seems hopeless vs goons despite strelets being one of russias best units, also their anti cav is abit shit, (i dont wanna get into russian musk) goons>cav archer but i feel this a unit issue not a civ issue as cav archers should have a higher base att and slightly lower hitpoints replaced with range resist, as well as goons range resist change would be nice. also makes other ranged cav such as ruyters fair worse vs goons too. Goons are just too much of a dominant unit. they even beat skirms in large numbers, meanwhile musks cant because of hit and run. they also rather cheap 180res, considering how much they do.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by medinos »

Hazza54321 wrote:buffing their unit shipments is the wrong way of doing things imo , just they dont have a smooth semi build, and they have to upgrade everything and have wood for bhs and strelets and houses and they cant afford to send 1kw for example otherwise they lose to early -mid fortress timing. its just too much on their early fragile economy to gather the wood for the things mentioned above.
also, their army just seems hopeless vs goons despite strelets being one of russias best units, also their anti cav is abit shit, (i dont wanna get into russian musk) goons>cav archer but i feel this a unit issue not a civ issue as cav archers should have a higher base att and slightly lower hitpoints replaced with range resist, as well as goons range resist change would be nice. also makes other ranged cav such as ruyters fair worse vs goons too. Goons are just too much of a dominant unit. they even beat skirms in large numbers, meanwhile musks cant because of hit and run. they also rather cheap 180res, considering how much they do.

They will buff their age 3 shipments and the early eco
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by zoom »

Indeed. Virtually everyone agrees with Dragoons being a touch to effective and difficult to counter.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Mimsy for President »

zoom wrote:Indeed. Virtually everyone agrees with Dragoons being a touch to effective and difficult to counter.
My agents told me there was a huge disagreement within the team regarding goons' range resist. Could you tell us moar in the interest of transparency ?
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Dsy »

I dont understand why the stats of the uhlans being changed... The problem with german got too many of them. If you change their stats they become useless lategame meanwhile early when you got a lot of them they are still strong.
You cant simple change anything except their attack i think. Even if you nerf it that cant be more like 10% i think. So it would have 33-34 attack could be the same strong as 37 but later just no1 would make them cause they would be too weak for their price... Yeah it can balance eraly-midgame but totally break lategame aspects...
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Garja »

g06092 wrote:First off "Having a chance" doesn't mean competitive. Yeah 17 strelets are almost the same as 8 skirms but strelets are usually much more effective, don't auto-upgrade and they are supposed to cost 47.5 resources and as only strelet shipment it should 20-21. 6 cossacks is 900 resources which most civs also have but they also have a 1000 resources shipments available too like 5 hussars. Also most civs can mass one unit from shipments while Russia has only one of each which makes it also predictable after 1-2 shipments in Fortress (in case sending unit shipments is viable as Russia). And don't tell me how good is the 800 resources shipment of 5 CA. It's always instantly paid off to send unit upgrade card if you have 20+ units ( a bit more for strelets) and with Russia you should be able to have. And for the upgrade shipments - well Russia should have some bonuses after all. If you do the math you'll end up that Russia's units (excluding strelets) are so slightly more cost effective without upgrades that it doesn't make and difference at all especially with their weak early economy.

I think you didn't get my point. I'm not saying it is too much, I was just advocating that it is on par with other civs.
"Having a chance" was a conservative way to say that they do totally fine.

Couprider wrote:6 cossack 6 oprichnik: 900 resources
11 musk: 825
9 halb: 844
5 cav archer: 800
17 strelet: 808
seems garja has a poor math.

That's cause Russian units are cost effective so they cost less than what they are worth. It is the same mistake you did with the 4 RR. RR are overpriced as fuck, like for practical use 4 goons > 4 rr even tho they cost less.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by deleted_user0 »

When it's out?
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by lemmings121 »

about the dragoon 'problem', was already considered a change in counter infantary rifling , green jackets, and similars to increase the bonus vs light cav as well as heavy inf?

probably wound't have a huge efect in early game, but at least it might change the mid-late game from pure goon+skirm wars, to something else...

[spoiler=spoiler]idk if thats the name of the techs lol, i'm talking about the arsenal skirm bonus upgrade, and the gurka age3 card...[/spoiler]
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Dsy »

And still dont understand why no wall cost changes with ceperated straight and pillar costs... There is no reason to not do that.
Other hand. I heared its possible to remove automatic stance change for cannon type unit which could fix the most annoying cannon bug when cannons changing only stances when you wanna shoot with them...
Grenadier type units are usless due their animation bug cause they dont throw anything when they should.
A guy offered a help here who could start to work to fix these things but i heared he didnt get permissions to do that. Why?
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by medinos »

Yeah that Grenadier unit what is their point ?
Why weren't they fixed at all ?
Its wierd...
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by fei123456 »

Garja wrote:
g06092 wrote:First off "Having a chance" doesn't mean competitive. Yeah 17 strelets are almost the same as 8 skirms but strelets are usually much more effective, don't auto-upgrade and they are supposed to cost 47.5 resources and as only strelet shipment it should 20-21. 6 cossacks is 900 resources which most civs also have but they also have a 1000 resources shipments available too like 5 hussars. Also most civs can mass one unit from shipments while Russia has only one of each which makes it also predictable after 1-2 shipments in Fortress (in case sending unit shipments is viable as Russia). And don't tell me how good is the 800 resources shipment of 5 CA. It's always instantly paid off to send unit upgrade card if you have 20+ units ( a bit more for strelets) and with Russia you should be able to have. And for the upgrade shipments - well Russia should have some bonuses after all. If you do the math you'll end up that Russia's units (excluding strelets) are so slightly more cost effective without upgrades that it doesn't make and difference at all especially with their weak early economy.

I think you didn't get my point. I'm not saying it is too much, I was just advocating that it is on par with other civs.
"Having a chance" was a conservative way to say that they do totally fine.

Couprider wrote:6 cossack 6 oprichnik: 900 resources
11 musk: 825
9 halb: 844
5 cav archer: 800
17 strelet: 808
seems garja has a poor math.

That's cause Russian units are cost effective so they cost less than what they are worth. It is the same mistake you did with the 4 RR. RR are overpriced as fuck, like for practical use 4 goons > 4 rr even tho they cost less.

i just dont know why you always compare rifle rider with goon. rifle rider is not used as goon, it's used to kill heavy infantry (and cannon). can you kill ashigaru/janissary with 4 goons?
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Garja »

You have skirms for that. Sioux barely find themselves in such situation. I mean 5rr is a good shipment to send when you just aged but in general I'd rather much have a goon type shipment for semi ff wars.
But anyway the point is that RR are overpriced since their cost incorporate stuff such as countering artillery (might be good ocasionally) and warships (basically useless).
In the same way Russian units are underpriced, atleast cossacks and strelets.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Kaiserklein »

RR would be op if they didn't have the heavy cav tag I think
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by zoom »

Definitely.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Garja »

Ye they would be pretty good but still far from OP for that cost. They would still have that ugly 30% meele resistance.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by fei123456 »

it's not rifle riders are overpriced. it's sioux late game eco sucks.
sioux are defined to have great cavalry units in late games. they have tons of buffs and shipments, thus making their cav units insane.
take rifle rider as an example. they have imperial upgrade (100% hp 100% attack), cav attack/hp/combat (30% hp 30% attack), cost reduce (-10% price), 1000g shipment (20% attack), plantation big button (20% attack), farm big button (10% hp), new ways (10% attack and +2 range), warchief aura and firepit (37% AURA attack). so their ultimate data is: 108 food 90 gold, 492 hp, 50 attack (1.5 ROF!), 3* heavy infantry and hand cavalry. one rifle rider has about 2* damage of a imperial dragoon, and 6* damage against musk!
fully upgraded sioux units are awesome killing machines, just like japanese infantry does.
well.......sioux don't have a late game lol.

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