EP 1.2: A balance update

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No Flag Jaeger
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Jaeger »

I hope there will be a small nerf to dragoon range resistance so that cav actually becomes more relevant in age 3. However, we gotta be careful because that would be a huge indirect buff to spain and germany
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by forgrin »

ovi12 wrote:I hope there will be a small nerf to dragoon range resistance so that cav actually becomes more relevant in age 3. However, we gotta be careful because that would be a huge indirect buff to spain and germany

I dunno, cav are already increasingly used as 3-part comps are becoming much more common. This would also buff China and France too. Cav have always been just on the border of being balanced and we probably shouldn't disturb them for the time being.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Jaeger »

forgrin wrote:
ovi12 wrote:I hope there will be a small nerf to dragoon range resistance so that cav actually becomes more relevant in age 3. However, we gotta be careful because that would be a huge indirect buff to spain and germany

I dunno, cav are already increasingly used as 3-part comps are becoming much more common. This would also buff China and France too. Cav have always been just on the border of being balanced and we probably shouldn't disturb them for the time being.

Well at the moment, if you play a port, dutch, french, (and other mirrors) in age 3 and you make cav you die. It's all just a skirm goon fest. Some people lose all of their goons after a while and that's when cav can win, but if they're careful they will still win. The kiting potential just makes hand cav cost inneficient imo
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by forgrin »

ovi12 wrote:
forgrin wrote:
ovi12 wrote:I hope there will be a small nerf to dragoon range resistance so that cav actually becomes more relevant in age 3. However, we gotta be careful because that would be a huge indirect buff to spain and germany

I dunno, cav are already increasingly used as 3-part comps are becoming much more common. This would also buff China and France too. Cav have always been just on the border of being balanced and we probably shouldn't disturb them for the time being.

Well at the moment, if you play a port, dutch, french, (and other mirrors) in age 3 and you make cav you die. It's all just a skirm goon fest. Some people lose all of their goons after a while and that's when cav can win, but if they're careful they will still win. The kiting potential just makes hand cav cost inneficient imo


Good point. Well maybe the fault isn't with goons then persay, but that the hand cav die too quickly? Perhaps increase cav RR upon vet upgrade. I just don't think making goons easier to kill is the answer.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by iCourt »

Garja wrote:Why not 15 coss shipment now that we are at it.
Well with that change I'll just make'em throw tomahawks too...
Garja wrote:Seriously, 6 coss is pretty much the same of 5 huss.
It is closer to 4 hussar in how it behaves. I don't think Cossacks are bad, just the card.
Garja wrote:5 CA is about the same of 5 goons.
Cavalry Archers have less ranged hit points, no instant fire, and their shots have a random multiplier to miss their target. Again while they are not a bad unit, a Dragoon they are not. In mass they aren't bad, but 5 Cavalry Archers is mediocre.
Garja wrote:17 strels is about the same of 8 skirms.
Agreed. It's not a bad card as is. Stretlet are a good unit overall.
Garja wrote:6 opri is the equivalent of 5 vet cav of other civs (tho with a diffrent purpose) and 2 cannons = 2 cannons. Then there is 1000w, 1000g, 9manchu and royal mint + refrigeration. With 3 cards Russia get 3 full upped units (most civs need 4 cards to do that...when they can).
Agreed.
Garja wrote:I think people are so wrong in judging the potential of Russia, a civ that on paper has exactly all the features that make a civ strong in 1v1.
Next patch Russia will be marginally buffed, while top civs such as Germans, French and China will be marginally nerfed. This should narrow the gap between them and Russia (and other UP civs), making stuff such as colonial timings more effective. Against everything else (ok maybe not otto on TP map) Russia already has chances of winning with a good build and the buffs of the next patch can only make things better for the civ.
Perhaps. I think the one general balance change we've put in will increase their chances indirectly, but we will have to test and see. While I have my opinions, the final design and balance changes y'all decide on I'll happily and respectfully implement.
ovi12 wrote:Can you give us any more specific details? I don't see anything wrong with lancers atm, but if anything I would like to see them have more hp; although still if we're gonna go with unit buffs my ideal change would be a small buff to rod attack

And for unction I'm guessing that you will make the card also reduce the cost of missionaries? I think it would be very difficult to balance unction.
While I can give vague details about what is going on, it is up to those on the balance team to give specific details.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Jaeger »

forgrin wrote:
ovi12 wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Well at the moment, if you play a port, dutch, french, (and other mirrors) in age 3 and you make cav you die. It's all just a skirm goon fest. Some people lose all of their goons after a while and that's when cav can win, but if they're careful they will still win. The kiting potential just makes hand cav cost inneficient imo


Good point. Well maybe the fault isn't with goons then persay, but that the hand cav die too quickly? Perhaps increase cav RR upon vet upgrade. I just don't think making goons easier to kill is the answer.


Yes perhaps that would be a better change because it wouldn't run the risk of messing with the semi ff meta. But many high level players agree that dragoons are a little bit too strong. They are probably the unit with the softest counter in the game, they take only 1.5x damage from skirmishers, which don't have that high of a base damage anyway
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Jaeger »

iCourt wrote:While I can give vague details about what is going on, it is up to those on the balance team to give specific details.

Is it possible to disclose any sort of timeframe for the release :D? At least if it will be released this month?
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by iCourt »

We just started testing. We are also having problems with the beta launcher. No time table right now. I think our balance team is burnt out from the tournament as well. Most if not all of them competed in it. Need another week or so before they start really getting into testing seriously again.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by forgrin »

iCourt wrote:We just started testing. We are also having problems with the beta launcher. No time table right now. I think our balance team is burnt out from the tournament as well. Most if not all of them competed in it. Need another week or so before they start really getting into testing seriously again.

How 'bout you let me test it? :P
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by enjoy2play »

Kaiserklein wrote:
enjoy2play wrote:didnt read anything about this thread, but why does german have 9 uhlan and u say 9 cos is too much?

Because the 3 free uhlans you get in that shipment are the civ bonus... It's like saying every civ should have 600w + 1 vil because india has it. Also 10% slower shipment so arguably not exactly a 9 uhlans shipment


so why they dont have 7 uhlan age 2 shipment? 5+2 of their bonus?
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N3O_Jerom wrote:and huh the balance is actually pretty good
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by deuxballesman »

Cause it's 3+2 uhlans age 2 for a slightly UP shipment. Should be 4+2 in my opinion like the 4 cos 5 is just OP.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Hazza54321 »

Garja wrote:
medinos wrote:Yes but Uhlan are a stronger unit We are talking about COSSACKS....

Vet cossack: 270hp, 31 attack. 75f 75g, 1 pop.
Vet ulhan: 228hp, 44 attack. 50f 100g, 2 pop.

1. uhlan still annihalate them even though relatively same cost
2. russia is likely to stay age 2 vs ger anyway so it is 29.9 att 258 hp, if not they go age 3 and have less than half the eco ger has
3. germany are also likely to send cav combat so its even more of a molesting
4. germany has more cav by default
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by iNcog »

Dragoon nerf to RR would not make it better vs Cavalry, rather it would make infantry a bit better vs Dragoons.

It's a nice change imo, wouldn't mind a similar nerf to musketeer type units. Could be very cool stuff to see this game moving forward.

I kind of want to play it again. But only on the new patch lol, with iCourt's bug fixes. Adjusted balance. gogo!!

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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by medinos »

I dunno why Garja still against the Russia buff jesss...
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by momuuu »

medinos wrote:I dunno why Garja still against the Russia buff jesss...

Because he believes russia isnt as bad as people say I think. And I actually agree with that. People keep brnging up how russia loses to france and germany but almost every civ loses to those civs (russia doesnt even do that poorly).

Garjas arguments about the shipments is mrh. They have two falcs which is great, and 5 cav archers which is decent, the 6 cossacks is okay too but 17 strelet is just shit. Compared to france having 7,8 skirm 3 cuir 5 goon and 2 falcs its pretty meh. But Russia is one of the last colonial civs, would be cool if it could stay like that #nerfTPs
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by KINGofOsmane »

well no need to buff russ anyway lol
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Garja »

Hazza54321 wrote:
Garja wrote:
medinos wrote:Yes but Uhlan are a stronger unit We are talking about COSSACKS....

Vet cossack: 270hp, 31 attack. 75f 75g, 1 pop.
Vet ulhan: 228hp, 44 attack. 50f 100g, 2 pop.

1. uhlan still annihalate them even though relatively same cost
2. russia is likely to stay age 2 vs ger anyway so it is 29.9 att 258 hp, if not they go age 3 and have less than half the eco ger has
3. germany are also likely to send cav combat so its even more of a molesting
4. germany has more cav by default


1. the cost is not the same at all, especially the cost for the houses.
2. true they will fight colo vs fortress but in that case they have more cossacks (less efficient obviously). If they go age3 with the stagecoach semi they actually have more eco than Germans. It's not the eco that loses the MU.
3. cav combat is as likely as boyars if not less. If Russia has a chance to send both cav combat and boyars cossack rape ulhans per cost.
4. Hmm ye probably. Tho cossacks are very spammable.

In all of this ulhans are being nerfed next patch.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by medinos »

Garja wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:
Show hidden quotes

1. uhlan still annihalate them even though relatively same cost
2. russia is likely to stay age 2 vs ger anyway so it is 29.9 att 258 hp, if not they go age 3 and have less than half the eco ger has
3. germany are also likely to send cav combat so its even more of a molesting
4. germany has more cav by default


1. the cost is not the same at all, especially the cost for the houses.
2. true they will fight colo vs fortress but in that case they have more cossacks (less efficient obviously). If they go age3 with the stagecoach semi they actually have more eco than Germans. It's not the eco that loses the MU.
3. cav combat is as likely as boyars if not less. If Russia has a chance to send both cav combat and boyars cossack rape ulhans per cost.
4. Hmm ye probably. Tho cossacks are very spammable.

In all of this ulhans are being nerfed next patch.

P.S.
And Russia is getting buffed if you like it or not...
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by KINGofOsmane »

lol like you could decide it
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by iCourt »

Russia is getting buffed next patch.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by zoom »

Note to self: Never share anything with iCourt that you want kept secret.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Mimsy for President »

Transparency ! But still not enough to my eyes.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Zhanson10 »

Don't weaken uhlans, they're shit units already. Just take away free uhlans from Eco shipments
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Kaiserklein »

enjoy2play wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
enjoy2play wrote:didnt read anything about this thread, but why does german have 9 uhlan and u say 9 cos is too much?

Because the 3 free uhlans you get in that shipment are the civ bonus... It's like saying every civ should have 600w + 1 vil because india has it. Also 10% slower shipment so arguably not exactly a 9 uhlans shipment


so why they dont have 7 uhlan age 2 shipment? 5+2 of their bonus?

Because 5 uhlans + 2 uhlans wouldn't be a normal shipment. A normal shipment would be 4 uhlans + 2 uhlans, since 4 uhlans is the cost of 3 huss. It's just the russian 5 cos card that is better than average. So germany should have 6 uhlans, not 7. But they have 5 uhlans for some reason, and people never send that card because it's bad, it lacks 1 uhlan.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by iCourt »

zoom wrote:Note to self: Never share anything with iCourt that you want kept secret.


The original post by Mart states this... People just can't seem to read? I never have said what the changes would be exactly. But yes I'm perhaps a bit more transparent than the rest of the team. I think they should have an idea what we are looking at. Any decent player probably has some general idea what we are looking into buffing or nerfing. Patch team keeps it private so they don't get flamed for "ruining" a civ I'd imagine.

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