EP 1.2: A balance update
EP 1.2: A balance update
Hi everyone,
We the balance team, recently reinforced by khorix (eso Heroes_), PrinceofKabul and Tibia (Welcome!) have been discussing changes for the upcoming ESOC Patch 1.2 and in the spirit of transparency here's an update on where we think the most pressing problems are and how we intend to address them. I say most pressing because we acknowledge that there are more problems than this, but our core philosophy remains that the metagame needs time to evolve and it can't properly do that if we switch things around too much.
Keep in mind we are still in beta and the change list is far from finalized. It's likely that things will change still.
So where is balance lacking right now?
Too strong
Germans
We are seeing a lot of German players this tournament, it was the top civ according to you, the community, before the tournament (source) and the patch team members are in virtually unanimous agreement that they are one of the best civs. The question, and this turned out to be a tough one, is how to change them. Unique bonuses that make German players feel all warm and fuzzy inside (like the 6 vill shipment) we don't want to touch if we can help it, and lowering their XP income removes choices (shipments). One thing we are seeing in German games is that uhlans aren't only the unit you get with shipments, players are also making an absolute ton of them in nearly every match up. We are currently looking at a stats nerf to uhlans.
Chinese
We are also seeing a lot of China, and often on maps with herdables. They get a significant boost with herdables due to their villages providing 10 "fattening slots" from the start of the game. This makes their balance depend too much on whether the map contains herdables. Currently, Chinese herdables already fatten 50% slower than usual before fortress age, we are looking to lower this further.
Also, we are noticing heavy reliance on the forbidden army in fortress age, so we are looking to nerf that. Not only is Chinese cavalry very strong, the train time of this banner army is also very favourable allowing China to easily mass from 1 military building where other civs would need 2. Perhaps a tweak to the train time would be enough.
French
This civ has also seen a lot of play this event, and the opinion of the team is that this is not just because they are so well-rounded, it's also because they simply win a lot of match ups. French are a civ which benefits from the TP meta like no other, because they can afford the early game investment. We are currently looking at removing native scout snare and seeing where we end up in test games. We shouldn't forget that as changes are made, French will always be a civ people fall back on so they will seem stronger and more popular than they perhaps should be, but additional changes may be needed here.
Too weak
Russians
It seems clear that Russia isn't quite up to par right now. Their lacking early economy and awkward semi-FF put them in a tough spot as the meta evolves into TP-abusing semi-FF territory. Russia's options may not be properly explored yet however, so we don't want to overbuff them. Currently we are looking at a small decrease in vill batch cost, and perhaps a buff to fortress age unit shipments.
Spanish
Spain has fallen off a little as people become more and more accustomed to their old school naked FF, and they are somewhat lacking in alternatives. To keep the spirit of Spain alive we are looking at buffing unit shipments, but we are also keen on adding economic options in both colonial and fortress by buffing missionaries which are unique to Spain and could add a new dimension to the civ.
Iroquois
Iro haven't seen a lot of play this event, and after playing the civ more in the current patch we feel our 1.0 changes may have been too much. Iro's semi-FF is still decent, but their colonial playstyles are very hurt by the lack of an early TP. We are currently looking at simply reverting the War Chief aura change and the Aenna cost change to give them a bit more juice in general plus a slight buff in colonial.
Dutch
As the new Dutch gets a bit more fleshed out, we are noticing that they are still not quite up to snuff. Still, banks are an expensive investment relative to the return they give and the Dutch selection of military units certainly isn't good enough to compensate for that. Our 1.0 changes also seem to be a bit off the mark (also with team games in mind), so we are taking this civ in a slightly different direction while maintaining a bank limit increase which is giving them, as a boom civ, the option to outboom civs like France and Germans.
Currently we are looking at increasing bank build XP bounty, a small buff to fortress age unit shipments and decreasing bank limit from 6 to 5. The discovery age "Bank of Rotterdam" and "Bank of Amsterdam" shipments will be restored to give +1 bank limit.
Late game balance fixes
Due to game-breaking balance issues in team games as well as 1v1 games we are looking to make some minor fixes there:
- Genitours (Portuguese shipment)
- Old han reforms (Chinese shipment)
- Mass cavalry (church improvement)
Please let us know what you all think
We the balance team, recently reinforced by khorix (eso Heroes_), PrinceofKabul and Tibia (Welcome!) have been discussing changes for the upcoming ESOC Patch 1.2 and in the spirit of transparency here's an update on where we think the most pressing problems are and how we intend to address them. I say most pressing because we acknowledge that there are more problems than this, but our core philosophy remains that the metagame needs time to evolve and it can't properly do that if we switch things around too much.
Keep in mind we are still in beta and the change list is far from finalized. It's likely that things will change still.
So where is balance lacking right now?
Too strong
Germans
We are seeing a lot of German players this tournament, it was the top civ according to you, the community, before the tournament (source) and the patch team members are in virtually unanimous agreement that they are one of the best civs. The question, and this turned out to be a tough one, is how to change them. Unique bonuses that make German players feel all warm and fuzzy inside (like the 6 vill shipment) we don't want to touch if we can help it, and lowering their XP income removes choices (shipments). One thing we are seeing in German games is that uhlans aren't only the unit you get with shipments, players are also making an absolute ton of them in nearly every match up. We are currently looking at a stats nerf to uhlans.
Chinese
We are also seeing a lot of China, and often on maps with herdables. They get a significant boost with herdables due to their villages providing 10 "fattening slots" from the start of the game. This makes their balance depend too much on whether the map contains herdables. Currently, Chinese herdables already fatten 50% slower than usual before fortress age, we are looking to lower this further.
Also, we are noticing heavy reliance on the forbidden army in fortress age, so we are looking to nerf that. Not only is Chinese cavalry very strong, the train time of this banner army is also very favourable allowing China to easily mass from 1 military building where other civs would need 2. Perhaps a tweak to the train time would be enough.
French
This civ has also seen a lot of play this event, and the opinion of the team is that this is not just because they are so well-rounded, it's also because they simply win a lot of match ups. French are a civ which benefits from the TP meta like no other, because they can afford the early game investment. We are currently looking at removing native scout snare and seeing where we end up in test games. We shouldn't forget that as changes are made, French will always be a civ people fall back on so they will seem stronger and more popular than they perhaps should be, but additional changes may be needed here.
Too weak
Russians
It seems clear that Russia isn't quite up to par right now. Their lacking early economy and awkward semi-FF put them in a tough spot as the meta evolves into TP-abusing semi-FF territory. Russia's options may not be properly explored yet however, so we don't want to overbuff them. Currently we are looking at a small decrease in vill batch cost, and perhaps a buff to fortress age unit shipments.
Spanish
Spain has fallen off a little as people become more and more accustomed to their old school naked FF, and they are somewhat lacking in alternatives. To keep the spirit of Spain alive we are looking at buffing unit shipments, but we are also keen on adding economic options in both colonial and fortress by buffing missionaries which are unique to Spain and could add a new dimension to the civ.
Iroquois
Iro haven't seen a lot of play this event, and after playing the civ more in the current patch we feel our 1.0 changes may have been too much. Iro's semi-FF is still decent, but their colonial playstyles are very hurt by the lack of an early TP. We are currently looking at simply reverting the War Chief aura change and the Aenna cost change to give them a bit more juice in general plus a slight buff in colonial.
Dutch
As the new Dutch gets a bit more fleshed out, we are noticing that they are still not quite up to snuff. Still, banks are an expensive investment relative to the return they give and the Dutch selection of military units certainly isn't good enough to compensate for that. Our 1.0 changes also seem to be a bit off the mark (also with team games in mind), so we are taking this civ in a slightly different direction while maintaining a bank limit increase which is giving them, as a boom civ, the option to outboom civs like France and Germans.
Currently we are looking at increasing bank build XP bounty, a small buff to fortress age unit shipments and decreasing bank limit from 6 to 5. The discovery age "Bank of Rotterdam" and "Bank of Amsterdam" shipments will be restored to give +1 bank limit.
Late game balance fixes
Due to game-breaking balance issues in team games as well as 1v1 games we are looking to make some minor fixes there:
- Genitours (Portuguese shipment)
- Old han reforms (Chinese shipment)
- Mass cavalry (church improvement)
Please let us know what you all think
- KINGofOsmane
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
i agree at most points gj
"Losing to Callen was the worst night of my life" Gibthedurrty 2019
"If hazza can get pr42 with team i can get pr50 with 1v1" Gibthedurrty 2018
"If hazza can get pr42 with team i can get pr50 with 1v1" Gibthedurrty 2018
Tete cs:go experienceLecastete wrote: Dude i hate this game. I am bad and i also dont have luck
- KINGofOsmane
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
i would give iro steal traps thought
"Losing to Callen was the worst night of my life" Gibthedurrty 2019
"If hazza can get pr42 with team i can get pr50 with 1v1" Gibthedurrty 2018
"If hazza can get pr42 with team i can get pr50 with 1v1" Gibthedurrty 2018
Tete cs:go experienceLecastete wrote: Dude i hate this game. I am bad and i also dont have luck
- thebritish
- Jaeger
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
You are going to buff Dutch even more...
-Why?
-I think the change Dutch needs is lowering the bank cost and their gather rate and in age 4 to give them some sort of an upgrade (the same upgrade shrines have) to boost their gather rate and maybe increase their cost again.
Also, british longbowman need to get better multiplier vs HI because they are only useful vs fighting others skirms (skirms lose their 0.75x advantage vs HI compared to longbowmans when fighting vs longbowman)
Longbowmans are the only skirm type unit for brits and having only 25% better damage vs HI compared to other skirms to have 100% better damage vs HI (200% with arsenal upgrade).
About Russians:
-The only way to fix them is to not make their rush better and make their FF slightly better.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
General Change is to nerf the fast age up because currently FF civs rek age 2 civs just because age 2 civs doesnt have any chance to kill falconets cost effectively..
-Why?
-I think the change Dutch needs is lowering the bank cost and their gather rate and in age 4 to give them some sort of an upgrade (the same upgrade shrines have) to boost their gather rate and maybe increase their cost again.
Also, british longbowman need to get better multiplier vs HI because they are only useful vs fighting others skirms (skirms lose their 0.75x advantage vs HI compared to longbowmans when fighting vs longbowman)
Longbowmans are the only skirm type unit for brits and having only 25% better damage vs HI compared to other skirms to have 100% better damage vs HI (200% with arsenal upgrade).
About Russians:
-The only way to fix them is to not make their rush better and make their FF slightly better.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
General Change is to nerf the fast age up because currently FF civs rek age 2 civs just because age 2 civs doesnt have any chance to kill falconets cost effectively..
krichk wrote: For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge thebritish
- Mr_Bramboy
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
thebritish wrote:Also, british longbowman need to get better multiplier vs HI because they are only useful vs fighting others skirms (skirms lose their 0.75x advantage vs HI compared to longbowmans when fighting vs longbowman)
Longbowmans are the only skirm type unit for brits and having only 25% better damage vs HI compared to other skirms to have 100% better damage vs HI (200% with arsenal upgrade).
What are you even trying to say here? For the record, lb are perfectly fine.
Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
Welcome @khorix, @tibia, and @princeofkabul – thank you for joining the team!
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- Jaeger
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
Looking forward to seeing Somppu and bpds in the EP team. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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- Dragoon
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- Joined: Jan 5, 2016
Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
no they are not
Acergamer wrote:Well, that's it for me fellas haha. Anyways I just want to say good luck to Samwise12 ,and hope he beats Lordraphael since he's basically a piece of shit idiot combination of Garja and Umeu.
N3O_Jerom wrote:and huh the balance is actually pretty good
- thebritish
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
I am gonna discuss with EP balance team about longbowmans.
-I am gonna ignore every post from people who arent in the EP balance team and wanna argue about longbowmans..
-I am gonna ignore every post from people who arent in the EP balance team and wanna argue about longbowmans..
krichk wrote: For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge thebritish
-
- Jaeger
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
*longbowmen
(sorry, not EP team member :/)
(sorry, not EP team member :/)
Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
What about walls? Ceperate cost of straight walls and pillars?
How do you want to change missionaries?
I dont agree dutch fix either. 4 bank limit would be better. Buff their colo by rework Dutch indian company card (or how thats called) by removing +100% hitpoints, but give it a bank wagon (cost bonus unchanged), plus the xp bonus then you mentioned.
Other stuffs seems cool.
How do you want to change missionaries?
I dont agree dutch fix either. 4 bank limit would be better. Buff their colo by rework Dutch indian company card (or how thats called) by removing +100% hitpoints, but give it a bank wagon (cost bonus unchanged), plus the xp bonus then you mentioned.
Other stuffs seems cool.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
good comments , this is exactly what we need
Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
enjoy2play wrote:no they are not
Longbowmen, I presume?
Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
I don't agree with some points, because except german and spanish, I'm fine with the patch.
Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
thebritish wrote:I am gonna discuss with EP balance team about longbowmans.
-I am gonna ignore every post from people who arent in the EP balance team and wanna argue about longbowmans..
They won't be changed.. You are literally the only person in the AoE scene who thinks longbows are a problem, be realistic here.
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- Dragoon
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
zoom wrote:enjoy2play wrote:no they are not
Longbowmen, I presume?
yes
if u fight 10 skirm vs 10 musk u dont lose a single skirm, i dont wanna say this should be possible with lb also, but atleast u should win that fight, maybe u do, idk really, but its close i guess.
Acergamer wrote:Well, that's it for me fellas haha. Anyways I just want to say good luck to Samwise12 ,and hope he beats Lordraphael since he's basically a piece of shit idiot combination of Garja and Umeu.
N3O_Jerom wrote:and huh the balance is actually pretty good
- thebritish
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
I think the only way to nerf German is to increase their shipment malus while buffing their xp trickle.
-Currently, they require 10% more xp for their shipments which is ridiculously low.
-10% means they will only miss 1 card after they have sent 10 cards (usually 16+ minute---->the time when the German player have won or lost)
What do you suggest?
-The only way to nerf Germany is to make their shipments require 15% or 20% more xp instead of 10%, but make their xp trickle bigger which means if they get a tp, it wont benefit them as much (this will actually mean tps are only nerfed for Germans)..
-Currently, they require 10% more xp for their shipments which is ridiculously low.
-10% means they will only miss 1 card after they have sent 10 cards (usually 16+ minute---->the time when the German player have won or lost)
What do you suggest?
-The only way to nerf Germany is to make their shipments require 15% or 20% more xp instead of 10%, but make their xp trickle bigger which means if they get a tp, it wont benefit them as much (this will actually mean tps are only nerfed for Germans)..
krichk wrote: For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge thebritish
- thebritish
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
Goodspeed wrote:thebritish wrote:I am gonna discuss with EP balance team about longbowmans.
-I am gonna ignore every post from people who arent in the EP balance team and wanna argue about longbowmans..
They won't be changed.. You are literally the only person in the AoE scene who thinks longbows are a problem, be realistic here.
I will have to ask other EP balance team members then..
krichk wrote: For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge thebritish
Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
Maybe create a seperate thread to discuss your longbowman issues that nobody else agree with, and leave this thread for discussing the EP notes.
Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
Good work and nice additions! Slight boost to age 2 China please.
mad cuz bad
- thebritish
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
Jerom wrote:Maybe create a seperate thread to discuss your longbowman issues that nobody else agree with, and leave this thread for discussing the EP notes.
You are ESOC Media Team member, not ESOC balance Team member, so no..
krichk wrote: For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge thebritish
- fightinfrenchman
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
thebritish wrote:Jerom wrote:Maybe create a seperate thread to discuss your longbowman issues that nobody else agree with, and leave this thread for discussing the EP notes.
You are ESOC Media Team member, not ESOC balance Team member, so no..
Lol
Dromedary Scone Mix is not Alone Mix
Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
These changes seem fine to me, just be careful with the Russia buffs when Harry's around. I am quite surprised to see no nerf to French late-game though, I thought they are considered even more OP than the other civs you're nerfing here?
Uh, separate cost for pillars?
1) I think this would be very hard to implement, bordering on impossible.
2) The proper way to make walls is without pillars anyway, so I actually don't understand what would be the point of this change at all.
Dsy wrote:What about walls? Ceperate cost of straight walls and pillars?
Uh, separate cost for pillars?
1) I think this would be very hard to implement, bordering on impossible.
2) The proper way to make walls is without pillars anyway, so I actually don't understand what would be the point of this change at all.
Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
will these balance changes be cognizant of treaty play? looking at a few of the proposed fixes, i think some of them might have a negative impact on the treaty mode, which i figure is fine so long as the patch is selectively seeking to improve supremacy gameplay. i'd like to know if the EP team thinks there should be a dichotomy between the two gamemodes balance, i.e. not attempting to balance both on the same patch
Re: EP 1.2: A balance update
Is a buff to rodeleros out of the question?
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