Longbow discussion

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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by thebritish »

Kaiserklein wrote:
thebritish wrote:If we counting it as full stats, its 3/1.25=2.4
Also, Brits have lbows in age 2 (better xbow), but they get nothing in age 3 other than gg for the opponent (Where are the skirm units for them in age 3 when lbows are age 2) ?


Ah so it's not a 8 multiplier anymore ? Loool man you're a joke. Why do you take the arsenal upgrade into account ? We told you like 100 times you never get that upgrade... Will you ever grow up ?
"Skirms shoot every 3 seconds, not 2.5. lbs shoot every 1.5 seconds, not 3. lbs don't miss 42% of the time if you micro them a bit (you prevent them from resetting animation), 10 lbs are very easy to micro and you will have like 10% miss max." Why don't you answer to this ? I'm waiting for your answer, enlighten me pls.
Brit don't get skirms in age 3, that's one of their weaknesses. Brits should have no weakness ? Should I be crying, as a german player, because I don't have musks in colo ? Obviously every civ have weaknesses and strengths... The weakness of brits having no skirms is also a strength, because they get lbs in colonial instead, and age 2 lbs can fight against age 3 skirms.

You added 1.0 for lbows and 1.0 for skirms because thats the only way to lwer it (it doesnt really affect the, multiplier anyway.
The only thing that affects the mutliplier is everything which is above 1.0 (0.25 for lbows and 2.0 for skirms).
ALso, if you arent using the arsenal at all, doesnt mean i dont use it too.
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by Papist »

thebritish wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
thebritish wrote:If we counting it as full stats, its 3/1.25=2.4
Also, Brits have lbows in age 2 (better xbow), but they get nothing in age 3 other than gg for the opponent (Where are the skirm units for them in age 3 when lbows are age 2) ?


Ah so it's not a 8 multiplier anymore ? Loool man you're a joke. Why do you take the arsenal upgrade into account ? We told you like 100 times you never get that upgrade... Will you ever grow up ?
"Skirms shoot every 3 seconds, not 2.5. lbs shoot every 1.5 seconds, not 3. lbs don't miss 42% of the time if you micro them a bit (you prevent them from resetting animation), 10 lbs are very easy to micro and you will have like 10% miss max." Why don't you answer to this ? I'm waiting for your answer, enlighten me pls.
Brit don't get skirms in age 3, that's one of their weaknesses. Brits should have no weakness ? Should I be crying, as a german player, because I don't have musks in colo ? Obviously every civ have weaknesses and strengths... The weakness of brits having no skirms is also a strength, because they get lbs in colonial instead, and age 2 lbs can fight against age 3 skirms.

You added 1.0 for lbows and 1.0 for skirms because thats the only way to lwer it (it doesnt really affect the, multiplier anyway.
The only thing that affects the mutliplier is everything which is above 1.0 (0.25 for lbows and 2.0 for skirms).
ALso, if you arent using the arsenal at all, doesnt mean i dont use it too.


If you're dumping a ton of wood and food into techs when you should be making units, I think we've identified one of your problems as a player.
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by thebritish »

Papist wrote:
thebritish wrote:
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You added 1.0 for lbows and 1.0 for skirms because thats the only way to lwer it (it doesnt really affect the, multiplier anyway.
The only thing that affects the mutliplier is everything which is above 1.0 (0.25 for lbows and 2.0 for skirms).
ALso, if you arent using the arsenal at all, doesnt mean i dont use it too.


If you're dumping a ton of wood and food into techs when you should be making units, I think we've identified one of your problems as a player.

What if i can afford both of this things?
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by zoom »

Then you're playing a civilization with a very strong economy.
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by thebritish »

This is the same as Russia or Aztec when sea-booming (they have the eco to afford the units, but they suck and are killed by every other unit)...
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

thebritish wrote:You added 1.0 for lbows and 1.0 for skirms because thats the only way to lwer it (it doesnt really affect the, multiplier anyway.
The only thing that affects the mutliplier is everything which is above 1.0 (0.25 for lbows and 2.0 for skirms).
ALso, if you arent using the arsenal at all, doesnt mean i dont use it too.


I'm gonna repeat this until you answer : "Skirms shoot every 3 seconds, not 2.5. lbs shoot every 1.5 seconds, not 3. lbs don't miss 42% of the time if you micro them a bit (you prevent them from resetting animation), 10 lbs are very easy to micro and you will have like 10% miss max." Why don't you answer to this ? I'm waiting for your answer, enlighten me pls.

About the other craps you pulled out of your ass, the correct multipliers for skirms and lbs are 2 and 1.25. "The only thing that affects the mutliplier is everything which is above 1.0" wtf ? Your anus must be so large, you get a ton of stuff out of it. You obviously can have multipliers under 1, so you're wrong already. So let me figure this out : for you, since everything that matters is over 1, a unit with a 1 multiplier vs musks (= no multiplier) has effectively 0 (you take only whats over 1), and a skirm has 2, which means effectively 1. So the skirm has an infinitely higher multiplier right ? Cause 1 / 0 means infinity, more or less.

"ALso, if you arent using the arsenal at all, doesnt mean i dont use it too." it's not about you or me, it's about everyone. And more or less everyone (with a decent level, that is) never end up researching the arsenal upgrade for skirms in most games...
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by lemmings121 »

about the precision of shots looks like everyone is just guessing so I decided to test it....

The test was done in scenario editor, just with a lot of inf shoting at a static mameluque, and I did the math over it.

It appears that LB,yumi and xbow accuracy is arround 92~96%, it is safe to assume, as a aproximation, that they miss arround 4 to 8% of the shots.

I also did it with skirms just to make sure, and they did hit 100%.
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by thebritish »

Kaiserklein wrote:
thebritish wrote:You added 1.0 for lbows and 1.0 for skirms because thats the only way to lwer it (it doesnt really affect the, multiplier anyway.
The only thing that affects the mutliplier is everything which is above 1.0 (0.25 for lbows and 2.0 for skirms).
ALso, if you arent using the arsenal at all, doesnt mean i dont use it too.


I'm gonna repeat this until you answer : "Skirms shoot every 3 seconds, not 2.5. lbs shoot every 1.5 seconds, not 3. lbs don't miss 42% of the time if you micro them a bit (you prevent them from resetting animation), 10 lbs are very easy to micro and you will have like 10% miss max." Why don't you answer to this ? I'm waiting for your answer, enlighten me pls.

About the other craps you pulled out of your ass, the correct multipliers for skirms and lbs are 2 and 1.25. "The only thing that affects the mutliplier is everything which is above 1.0" wtf ? Your anus must be so large, you get a ton of stuff out of it. You obviously can have multipliers under 1, so you're wrong already. So let me figure this out : for you, since everything that matters is over 1, a unit with a 1 multiplier vs musks (= no multiplier) has effectively 0 (you take only whats over 1), and a skirm has 2, which means effectively 1. So the skirm has an infinitely higher multiplier right ? Cause 1 / 0 means infinity, more or less.

"ALso, if you arent using the arsenal at all, doesnt mean i dont use it too." it's not about you or me, it's about everyone. And more or less everyone (with a decent level, that is) never end up researching the arsenal upgrade for skirms in most games...

The thing is skirms at some point of the game get 3.0x vs Infantry (i remove 1.0 multiplier because something *1=something , for ex 2*1=2, 3*1=3). Lbows only get 25% better damage vs HI while skirms get 100% as you say. They will also get 200% because of the arsenal tech compared to 25% for lbows (skirms have 8x times better chance vs musks than lbows).
About the lbows missing 42% is a real thing which was already tested...
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

thebritish wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
thebritish wrote:You added 1.0 for lbows and 1.0 for skirms because thats the only way to lwer it (it doesnt really affect the, multiplier anyway.
The only thing that affects the mutliplier is everything which is above 1.0 (0.25 for lbows and 2.0 for skirms).
ALso, if you arent using the arsenal at all, doesnt mean i dont use it too.


I'm gonna repeat this until you answer : "Skirms shoot every 3 seconds, not 2.5. lbs shoot every 1.5 seconds, not 3. lbs don't miss 42% of the time if you micro them a bit (you prevent them from resetting animation), 10 lbs are very easy to micro and you will have like 10% miss max." Why don't you answer to this ? I'm waiting for your answer, enlighten me pls.

About the other craps you pulled out of your ass, the correct multipliers for skirms and lbs are 2 and 1.25. "The only thing that affects the mutliplier is everything which is above 1.0" wtf ? Your anus must be so large, you get a ton of stuff out of it. You obviously can have multipliers under 1, so you're wrong already. So let me figure this out : for you, since everything that matters is over 1, a unit with a 1 multiplier vs musks (= no multiplier) has effectively 0 (you take only whats over 1), and a skirm has 2, which means effectively 1. So the skirm has an infinitely higher multiplier right ? Cause 1 / 0 means infinity, more or less.

"ALso, if you arent using the arsenal at all, doesnt mean i dont use it too." it's not about you or me, it's about everyone. And more or less everyone (with a decent level, that is) never end up researching the arsenal upgrade for skirms in most games...

The thing is skirms at some point of the game get 3.0x vs Infantry (i remove 1.0 multiplier because something *1=something , for ex 2*1=2, 3*1=3). Lbows only get 25% better damage vs HI while skirms get 100% as you say. They will also get 200% because of the arsenal tech compared to 25% for lbows (skirms have 8x times better chance vs musks than lbows).
About the lbows missing 42% is a real thing which was already tested...

Ok you are hopeless, I give up
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by deuxballesman »

My turn then ^^
@thebritish you have to compare the whole bonus to give an accurate answer so skirm bonus/lb bonus => 3/1.25=2.5 not 2/0.25=8. Don't forget that lbows shoot twice as fast so 2.5/2=1.25 (since you deeply lack mental skill I'll detail all the steps for you). Lbow miss around 10% of the time ? Very well then I had that 1.25x1.1=1.37. So there you go skirm with the arsenal tech are just 37% better at killing HI than lbow and that's with a tech you never research and neglecting the range bonus.

Conclusion: lbows are not hopeless (unlike you) against HI

And for God sake when you are clueless like for the random 42% miss of the lb don't speak. Do you really see lb missing almost half the time??
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by zoom »

deuxballesman wrote:My turn then ^^
@thebritish you have to compare the whole bonus to give an accurate answer so skirm bonus/lb bonus => 3/1.25=2.5 not 2/0.25=8. Don't forget that lbows shoot twice as fast so 2.5/2=1.25 (since you deeply lack mental skill I'll detail all the steps for you). Lbow miss around 10% of the time ? Very well then I had that 1.25x1.1=1.37. So there you go skirm with the arsenal tech are just 37% better at killing HI than lbow and that's with a tech you never research and neglecting the range bonus.

Conclusion: lbows are not hopeless (unlike you) against HI

And for God sake when you are clueless like for the random 42% miss of the lb don't speak. Do you really see lb missing almost half the time??

They don't miss more than 5-10% of the time, but they do seem to reset their animation a lot, which has a significant impact on their damage output. Quite how significant varies depending on micro and target behaviour (enemy unit micro and movement).
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by DivineFire »

deuxballesman wrote:My turn then ^^
@thebritish you have to compare the whole bonus to give an accurate answer so skirm bonus/lb bonus => 3/1.25=2.5 not 2/0.25=8. Don't forget that lbows shoot twice as fast so 2.5/2=1.25 (since you deeply lack mental skill I'll detail all the steps for you). Lbow miss around 10% of the time ? Very well then I had that 1.25x1.1=1.37. So there you go skirm with the arsenal tech are just 37% better at killing HI than lbow and that's with a tech you never research and neglecting the range bonus.

Conclusion: lbows are not hopeless (unlike you) against HI

And for God sake when you are clueless like for the random 42% miss of the lb don't speak. Do you really see lb missing almost half the time??

Please keep the personal attacks to a minimum. This goes for all of you.
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by Garja »

Can we end the discussion here btw?
We all know that lbows are good. Yes they lose to musks in low numbers and beat cav in high numbers. At the end of the day they're worth their cost and their respective civ is fine, hence they don't need a change.
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by iNcog »

I always thought it was a given that Longbowmen were almost as broken as bow riders or yumi.

and i don't even need shitty math to know that xD
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

DivineFire wrote:
deuxballesman wrote:My turn then ^^
@thebritish you have to compare the whole bonus to give an accurate answer so skirm bonus/lb bonus => 3/1.25=2.5 not 2/0.25=8. Don't forget that lbows shoot twice as fast so 2.5/2=1.25 (since you deeply lack mental skill I'll detail all the steps for you). Lbow miss around 10% of the time ? Very well then I had that 1.25x1.1=1.37. So there you go skirm with the arsenal tech are just 37% better at killing HI than lbow and that's with a tech you never research and neglecting the range bonus.

Conclusion: lbows are not hopeless (unlike you) against HI

And for God sake when you are clueless like for the random 42% miss of the lb don't speak. Do you really see lb missing almost half the time??

Please keep the personal attacks to a minimum. This goes for all of you.

It's hard when you argue with thebritish
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by iNcog »

Kaiserklein wrote:
DivineFire wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Please keep the personal attacks to a minimum. This goes for all of you.

It's hard when you argue with thebritish


in b4 deleted because you disrespect da mods
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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by DivineFire »

Kaiserklein wrote:
DivineFire wrote:Please keep the personal attacks to a minimum. This goes for all of you.

It's hard when you argue with thebritish

I'm sure arguing with certain people can be quite frustrating but I have to stress keeping things mature. Now then, back to topic please, this post isn't about moderation.
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by cedarfarms »

thebritish just needs to understand the difference in a soft counter and a hard counter. Longbows are a soft counter to musketeers and basically soft counter all other forms of infantry, where as skirms hard counter muskets so ofc skirms will do better vs muskets. But against any other infantry unit including skirms themselves, you would rather have lb. So you want to buff longbows because they are a soft counter instead of a hard counter against one infantry type lol.
Take halbs and jag prowl knights fighting cav. Halbs hard counter cav and jpk soft counter cav (x2), so thebritish would you argue that jpk need to be buffed because they only have 2x multiplier against cav?
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by thebritish »

cedarfarms wrote:thebritish just needs to understand the difference in a soft counter and a hard counter. Longbows are a soft counter to musketeers and basically soft counter all other forms of infantry, where as skirms hard counter muskets so ofc skirms will do better vs muskets. But against any other infantry unit including skirms themselves, you would rather have lb. So you want to buff longbows because they are a soft counter instead of a hard counter against one infantry type lol.
Take halbs and jag prowl knights fighting cav. Halbs hard counter cav and jpk soft counter cav (x2), so thebritish would you argue that jpk need to be buffed because they only have 2x multiplier against cav?

You are not going to change their unit stats lol.
You are only going to adjust their multiplier vs HI (thats the only thing which will be affected)
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by cedarfarms »

Just finished reading everything, and the point just needs to be repeated that longbows arent meant to beat heavy infantry as well as skirms. So wasting time arguing about how skirms beat muskets better than lbs is just a waste of time. Lbs arent a worse unit because skirms excel in one situation better, and that is certainly not a reason to buff them.

The whole thing about longbows missing 42 percent of the time, i dont even know what to say in response to that
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by thebritish »

cedarfarms wrote:Just finished reading everything, and the point just needs to be repeated that longbows arent meant to beat heavy infantry as well as skirms. So wasting time arguing about how skirms beat muskets better than lbs is just a waste of time. Lbs arent a worse unit because skirms excel in one situation better, and that is certainly not a reason to buff them.

The whole thing about longbows missing 42 percent of the time, i dont even know what to say in response to that

How are lbows going to go from shit units to OP units by getting +0.25x vs HI?
Also,those 42% were from a test editor (lbows missed 42% of the shots)
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by cedarfarms »

thebritish wrote:
cedarfarms wrote:thebritish just needs to understand the difference in a soft counter and a hard counter. Longbows are a soft counter to musketeers and basically soft counter all other forms of infantry, where as skirms hard counter muskets so ofc skirms will do better vs muskets. But against any other infantry unit including skirms themselves, you would rather have lb. So you want to buff longbows because they are a soft counter instead of a hard counter against one infantry type lol.
Take halbs and jag prowl knights fighting cav. Halbs hard counter cav and jpk soft counter cav (x2), so thebritish would you argue that jpk need to be buffed because they only have 2x multiplier against cav?

You are not going to change their unit stats lol.
You are only going to adjust their multiplier vs HI (thats the only thing which will be affected)


Did i ever say anything about changing their unit stats? The question is simple, based on ur logic for why longbows need a buff against HI because skirms have it, Why dont jpk get an extra buff vs cav because halbs have it?

The answer to both is that in each situation, one is a soft counter and one is a hard counter. What this means is, the soft counter will be slightly less effective in this particular situation, (lbs and jpk will do slightly worse against HI and cav as compared to skirms and halbs) but the soft counter is more versatile and will be more effective in multiple other situations. Wrap your head around it, its really not that hard to grasp.
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by thebritish »

Jaguar prowl knighs have 3.0x vs HI lol
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by cedarfarms »

Man you are simple lol, i am not talking about anything involving jpk and HI. When i said lbs and jpk will do slightly worse against HI and cav it was a respective comparison, which i thought was clear given the past comments. In case you still cant understand that, it means LBs will do worse vs HI, and Jpk will do worse vs cav. I am not discussing how jpk do against HI at all in any of this
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Re: Longbow discussion

Post by SoldieR »

The only argument against lb should be about super late game.. At which point you should just make super Cav and super musk.. This must be a treaty discussion, because lb are good til treaty time

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