Possible Dragoon nerf?

[zoom]

Personally, I would nerf the speed of Dragoons (and similar units) to 6.75 and remove the range increase from the Ranged Cavalry Caracole improvement and increase its effect to 20%.

[Atomiswave]

Personally, I would nerf the speed of Dragoons (and similar units) to 6.75 and remove the range increase from the Ranged Cavalry Caracole improvement and increase its effect to 20%.

Speed nerf is bad idea because it will make them easy target for hand cav, which they are meant to hard counter. With speed decreasement hand cav will easily catch and snare them. RR or range nerf is much better in my opinion.

[Atomiswave]

Dragoons are just such a good counter to musk-huss play, making civs like brits not able to stay in colonial and be effective. If I were to nerf goons, I would nerf their range, so that musketeers stand a chance against them, and kiting with goons is harder, and they get more damage delt to them. With this though, I would counter buff and make ranged cavalry caracole slightly stronger.

That's why Brits have to transition to lbow/goon if they manage to reach 3.

I agree, 10 range would be nice, so units like musk have better chance to hit em. Anyway, it's good to see that most people on this topic agree goon need small nerf.

Yeah, I do think that goons need a nerf, but like the already implemented abus gun nerf, I want goons to be nerfed in a way that can be counter-acted by good micro (something like a range reduction pleases me for this reason).

Good idea, that way they will become more skill based unit. I think if it comes to nerfing goons it will probably be RR, because it's the safest bet. If it proves too small, they can easily change it later.

[Darwin_]

Now the real question is, what about ruyters, bow riders, rifle riders, zamburaks, etc...? if the patch team decides to nerf the range of Dragoons, will nerving the the range of the other units be required, or will other nerfs/buffs be required?

[Darwin_]

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[Kaiserklein]

Rifle riders are bad and ruyters aren't as good as goons because of their range resist. Bow riders were nerfed already

[Darwin_]

Rifle riders are bad and ruyters aren't as good as goons because of their range resist. Bow riders were nerfed already

Yeah, those units are not as good as dragoons, but, will we have to nerf them to be equivalently bad to dragoons? Effectively, do we want to nerf dragoons, or do we want to nerf light cavalry in general? Because light cavalry in general is good against colonial compositions, and the nerf that I have proposed, and which many agree with, nerf their abilities against musk-hues compositions, and thusly skirt-goon compositions as well. My idea is the range reduction, but will the extra range that other light cavalry units have be unfair, if not comparably over-powered?

[lordraphael]

Rifle riders are bad and ruyters aren't as good as goons because of their range resist. Bow riders were nerfed already

rumours have it you called ruyters lame ?

[Kaiserklein]

Rifle riders are bad and ruyters aren't as good as goons because of their range resist. Bow riders were nerfed already

rumours have it you called ruyters lame ?

I called 150 ruyts spam in ep teamgames lame. But people like to remove the context

Yeah, those units are not as good as dragoons, but, will we have to nerf them to be equivalently bad to dragoons? Effectively, do we want to nerf dragoons, or do we want to nerf light cavalry in general? Because light cavalry in general is good against colonial compositions, and the nerf that I have proposed, and which many agree with, nerf their abilities against musk-hues compositions, and thusly skirt-goon compositions as well. My idea is the range reduction, but will the extra range that other light cavalry units have be unfair, if not comparably over-powered?

That change won't happen, it's gonna be -10% rr, because goons are not only too strong against musk huss but too strong overall, so a -2 range nerf wouldn't be enough I guess. So all those ranged cav will keep the same range, and then only goons will be nerfed because other ranged cav don't need a nerf

[forgrin]

Lol this thread.

The issue with goons isn't that they're too strong or pop efficient, they're pretty mediocre in both categories considering they're 2 pop apiece. The issue is that you can mass them easily from one stable and that will always beat 1 rax making skirms (double the pop). IMO they need a training time increase more than anything else, just make them harder to mass and the problems will go away. They could probably have a +5g/+5f cost increase as well, or increase LI multiplier vs them.

[Atomiswave]

Rifle riders are bad and ruyters aren't as good as goons because of their range resist. Bow riders were nerfed already

Yeah, those units are not as good as dragoons, but, will we have to nerf them to be equivalently bad to dragoons? Effectively, do we want to nerf dragoons, or do we want to nerf light cavalry in general? Because light cavalry in general is good against colonial compositions, and the nerf that I have proposed, and which many agree with, nerf their abilities against musk-hues compositions, and thusly skirt-goon compositions as well. My idea is the range reduction, but will the extra range that other light cavalry units have be unfair, if not comparably over-powered?

That change won't happen because it will standardize mentioned units, which is against patch philosophy. Every unit type should be different in some way. That's why AOE III is so diverse and interesting.

[iNcog]

My understanding was that it was not ranged cav which was a problem, rather the Dragoon as a unit itself was a bit too strong.

[zoom]

In the context of its civilizations, yes. Whether the nerf should be extended to other light cavalry is controversial.

[forgrin]

In the context of its civilizations, yes. Whether the nerf should be extended to other light cavalry is controversial.

Other LC isn't really good against anything other than cav (obviously) and HI as long as you kite. Goons aren't even that strong, it's just that you can mass them faster than you can mass skirms in fortress pop for pop so they tend to get to their critical mass faster. As I said before, training time nerf is all that's required IMO.

[_H2O]

Training time nerf I actually like. First goon change I could be okay with

[Hazza54321]

In the context of its civilizations, yes. Whether the nerf should be extended to other light cavalry is controversial.

Other LC isn't really good against anything other than cav (obviously) and HI as long as you kite. Goons aren't even that strong, it's just that you can mass them faster than you can mass skirms in fortress pop for pop so they tend to get to their critical mass faster. As I said before, training time nerf is all that's required IMO.

have you ever played a team game?

[Dsy]

Analyse goons power heavily depends on which civ are we talkin about. I dont think goons are op with spanish but seems too strong with french for example. Huge eco and civ tier differences make seems some units stronger than they basicly are.

[forgrin]

In the context of its civilizations, yes. Whether the nerf should be extended to other light cavalry is controversial.

Other LC isn't really good against anything other than cav (obviously) and HI as long as you kite. Goons aren't even that strong, it's just that you can mass them faster than you can mass skirms in fortress pop for pop so they tend to get to their critical mass faster. As I said before, training time nerf is all that's required IMO.

have you ever played a team game?

If you play something other than Russ you'd have a different opinion. Russ have problems with goons but that's moreso a problem with strel rather than anything else.

[Hazza54321]

Show hidden quotes

In the context of its civilizations, yes. Whether the nerf should be extended to other light cavalry is controversial.

Other LC isn't really good against anything other than cav (obviously) and HI as long as you kite. Goons aren't even that strong, it's just that you can mass them faster than you can mass skirms in fortress pop for pop so they tend to get to their critical mass faster. As I said before, training time nerf is all that's required IMO.

have you ever played a team game?

If you play something other than Russ you'd have a different opinion. Russ have problems with goons but that's moreso a problem with strel rather than anything else.

look elo, shut up, thank you.

[Papist]

In my opinion (for what it's worth), the goal when tweaking dragoons should be to reduce their effectiveness as a general unit while allowing them to retain their effectiveness against cav. There are a couple of ways one might go about this, and this is an idea I had: nerf dragoons' base attack, but give them better multipliers (bringing their attack against the units they counter to what it was pre-nerf). This way, you prevent people from winning through goon spam, but also don't fundamentally undermine the dragoon as an anticav unit. Stats scaling would obviously have to be adjusted, but I think standard dragoon attack would theoretically cap at 35-40 in Imperial.

[iNcog]

the rumor i heard is that they're going to slightly decreased ranged resistance, which is what makes a lot of sense. goons vs hand cav remains the same, goon vs artillery remains the same.

however goons vs ranged infantry is now slightly better for RI, which should be enough to help, since goons are borderline not OP in the first place (see H2O's post)