Kaiserklein wrote:20% rr and they will probs be fine
I wonder how that'd affect 1v1 balance. Probably something france deserves, nonfactor for brits/spain mostly (though brit occasionally does make goons). Might be kinda sad for ports
It will indirectly buff civs that don't have goon, so it could be problematic change. It doesn't have to be 20% though, I would start with 10, which would probably be enough.
forgrin wrote:Especially Ports restore RR on Jinites?
Relying on goon spam isn't something we want imo... If ep ports need a buff (and imo they don't) I would buff caçadores, or bring inf upgrades to ages 2 and 3 like brits, or do something about the 2 organs shipment (or a combination of those changes). But I don't think we should let goons be that strong, whatever civ is using them. Just like mams, you could have said "keep 5 mams for ports", but I think it's bad to rely on something OP to try to balance a civ.
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
forgrin wrote:Especially Ports restore RR on Jinites?
Relying on goon spam isn't something we want imo... If ep ports need a buff (and imo they don't) I would buff caçadores, or bring inf upgrades to ages 2 and 3 like brits, or do something about the 2 organs shipment (or a combination of those changes). But I don't think we should let goons be that strong, whatever civ is using them. Just like mams, you could have said "keep 5 mams for ports", but I think it's bad to rely on something OP to try to balance a civ.
I definitely agree with cass buffs and goon nerfs, in fact I'm totally down for Ports being a better-rounded civ. But the fact of the matter is, the people who actually seem to make the decisions on the patch team haven't shown interest (no offense to present company, but i'm sure you know it as much as anyone). If we're not going to get Cass buffs in 1.2, and instead just a goon nerf, I'll advocate for a placeholder instead.
forgrin wrote:I definitely agree with cass buffs and goon nerfs, in fact I'm totally down for Ports being a better-rounded civ. But the fact of the matter is, the people who actually seem to make the decisions on the patch team haven't shown interest (no offense to present company, but i'm sure you know it as much as anyone). If we're not going to get Cass buffs in 1.2, and instead just a goon nerf, I'll advocate for a placeholder instead.
Tbh I find ports really strong on ep. That's my personal opinion, but I think with a goon nerf ports will be just balanced in 1v1.
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Kaiserklein wrote:Relying on goon spam isn't something we want imo... If ep ports need a buff (and imo they don't) I would buff caçadores, or bring inf upgrades to ages 2 and 3 like brits, or do something about the 2 organs shipment (or a combination of those changes). But I don't think we should let goons be that strong, whatever civ is using them. Just like mams, you could have said "keep 5 mams for ports", but I think it's bad to rely on something OP to try to balance a civ.
Totally agree. I agree also that goons need some nerf, but bear in mind MUs vs Germany or China, where there is a lot of cav involved and countering them with heavy inf isn't really an option.
These are a couple of options I see to decreasing Dragoon ranged resistance:
– Change all ranged infantry's "cavalry" multiplier to a "heavy cavalry" multiplier, increasing its damage output against light cavalry by 1/3. – Decrease Dragoon and Musket Rider speed from 7.25 to 6.75.
Dragoons are just such a good counter to musk-huss play, making civs like brits not able to stay in colonial and be effective. If I were to nerf goons, I would nerf their range, so that musketeers stand a chance against them, and kiting with goons is harder, and they get more damage delt to them. With this though, I would counter buff and make ranged cavalry caracole slightly stronger.
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Base goon range should be equal to musk range. However, goons range can still be upgraded at arsenal. Goons can still punish colonial play, but not immediately as it requires an Arsenal up.
Darwin_ wrote:Dragoons are just such a good counter to musk-huss play, making civs like brits not able to stay in colonial and be effective. If I were to nerf goons, I would nerf their range, so that musketeers stand a chance against them, and kiting with goons is harder, and they get more damage delt to them. With this though, I would counter buff and make ranged cavalry caracole slightly stronger.
That's why Brits have to transition to lbow/goon if they manage to reach 3.
I agree, 10 range would be nice, so units like musk have better chance to hit em. Anyway, it's good to see that most people on this topic agree goon need small nerf.
deleted_user wrote:Base goon range should be equal to musk range. However, goons range can still be upgraded at arsenal. Goons can still punish colonial play, but not immediately as it requires an Arsenal up.
But you don't need 14 range. 12 range is enough to kite musks, only the front line will shoot. For example if you have 10 goons vs 20 musks, you can always run and come back a few seconds later on a side of the group of musks to get free kills, etc. Goons do punish colonial play. 10 range would allow musks to actually give real volleys against goons. But -10% rr is fine as well
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Hazza54321 wrote:nah 10 range nerf is bad, the range resistance is fine, tried it on beta, they actually drop now, dont wanna make them underpowered
-10% rr is probs a bigger nerf than 10 range actually. Because 10 range will really matter only against musks, not that much against skirms (skirms outrange goons hard anyway), while -10% rr matters against any ranged unit
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Hazza54321 wrote:nah 10 range nerf is bad, the range resistance is fine, tried it on beta, they actually drop now, dont wanna make them underpowered
-10% rr is probs a bigger nerf than 10 range actually. Because 10 range will really matter only against musks, not that much against skirms (skirms outrange goons hard anyway), while -10% rr matters against any ranged unit
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Darwin_ wrote:Dragoons are just such a good counter to musk-huss play, making civs like brits not able to stay in colonial and be effective. If I were to nerf goons, I would nerf their range, so that musketeers stand a chance against them, and kiting with goons is harder, and they get more damage delt to them. With this though, I would counter buff and make ranged cavalry caracole slightly stronger.
That's why Brits have to transition to lbow/goon if they manage to reach 3.
I agree, 10 range would be nice, so units like musk have better chance to hit em. Anyway, it's good to see that most people on this topic agree goon need small nerf.
Yeah, I do think that goons need a nerf, but like the already implemented abus gun nerf, I want goons to be nerfed in a way that can be counter-acted by good micro (something like a range reduction pleases me for this reason).
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.