Archaic units buffs?

France iNcog
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by iNcog »

@tilanus You make some interesting points, good read. Even though I don't not quite agree with the need to be as historically accurate as what you're describing, I still understand where you're coming from.

That's why I look forward to NE being included in the ESOC launcher. I really cannot wait for that development to take place, since it would not only make it easier to obtain and play NE in the first place, but it would also really attract new players.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
Netherlands momuuu
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by momuuu »

Incog wrote:
Jerom wrote:1492 (discovery of the new world!?)


Nah, it was "discovered" way before that, though you could say "beginning of the interest in the New World by Europeans". You could not say, however "beginning of the Age of Exploration by Europeans", since they had embarked on expeditions around Africa, India and Asia for a while before. TAD does cover that time period as well.

Euhm, what? Im pretty sure columbus discovered America, at the very least for the europeans?

Also, given that you can choose consulate allies in age 1 I think that means aoe might start very slightly after the exploration of asia.
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Germany tilanus
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by tilanus »

Lol, @Jerom now you're acting a bit like the hypocrites I was describing. :mrgreen: Once we talk about the historical aspects of the game you dodge, but just right after you're convinced you can find actual historical sense in the game. :D

Of course good gameplay beats everything. That doesn't mean though that a historically-themed game should not also be about history with a certain level of quality, right? Video games have a lot of facettes, just like movies and books.
There's the obvious entertainment or gaming part (Ludus) steming from its game's mechanics, its syntax. But there's also a lot of semantics in games that do not really interfere with how the game works on a technical level. This is the "surface design" of the game consisting of graphics, sounds and text that serve as ornaments, environment, cultural references, etc. which are supposed to create a certain type of immersion, game experience and meaning. I'm only talking about that layer between the player and the game's mechanics.

For game designers it's easy to take the stats of let's say the lbow, xbow or whatsoever unit and give it other visuals that are closer and fit much better to the historical setting and theme of the game. Surely, designing a pure melee unit with the stats of a Doppelsöldner for 4 ages up to Imperial age would not work so well in a historical context where these weapons were no longer used. However, there are also dozens of alternative stats you could design and instead of Doppel stats you would easily enrich the game with alternative stats. Mods like NE, K&B and WoL proved that with ease for AoE3. So if we can make AoE3 with accurate/credible depictions of historical troop types instead of cliché anachronisms and archaisms from children libraries then so the original devs could have achieved that if only they wanted to (which you can see in the quote they didn't). The result is that even though AoE3 is a good game on the mechanical side, its loosely historically-inspired sandbox world does lack a lot of authenticity and credibility, which is just unnecessary and wasted potential. And that is my point, you could have made a historically-based AoE3 with pretty much equivalent stat design, but a lot more credible game world with comparably easy measures.

@iNcog : So far I just flamed AoE3 for its lack of historical credibility. :mrgreen: I actually didn't say yet how accurate I'd like AoE3 to be. But from what I just said about mechanics and visuals (syntax and semantics) you can probably see that improving the historical quality of a game does not necessarily mean to change the whole fundament. One could easily replace the War Wagon with an elitary German ranged cavalryman from somewhere between the 17th and 19th century and still use the unit like a War Wagon. And the use of a unit is what most (especially competitive) players care about anyway, right? Most people would probably still use Skirmishers because of their usefulness even if they'd be ridiculous stick-throwing kids. For me personally a good, credible presentation matters a lot more in games, but I think you'll all agree that a Skirmisher truly looking like a light infantryman in proper historical uniform would make the Skirmisher's usefulness even more enjoyable than him being just a random guy in jeans, right? ;)

A more historical AoE3 would not only increase its credibility and authenticity as a historically themed game, but it would also look and sound cooler.

q.e.d. in Napoleonic Era 2.2 8-)
France iNcog
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by iNcog »

Jerom wrote:
Incog wrote:
Jerom wrote:1492 (discovery of the new world!?)


Nah, it was "discovered" way before that, though you could say "beginning of the interest in the New World by Europeans". You could not say, however "beginning of the Age of Exploration by Europeans", since they had embarked on expeditions around Africa, India and Asia for a while before. TAD does cover that time period as well.

Euhm, what? Im pretty sure columbus discovered America, at the very least for the europeans?

Also, given that you can choose consulate allies in age 1 I think that means aoe might start very slightly after the exploration of asia.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saga_of_Erik_the_Red
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
France iNcog
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by iNcog »

@tilanus Yes, I quite agree with your points.

I'm not really going to disagree with it, since you're mostly right. I suppose that from a historical perspective, AOE3 is indeed garbage and that had the developers looked to make the game more historically accurate, it may have been more popular than what it was. Gameplay comes first, but history (or lore, in other games I suppose) is also quite important.

All the more reason to try out NE, right? :D

Have you seen videos from the YouTube channel named "capandball"? It's a great channel with a lot of cool information on the historical use and development of firearms.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
Netherlands momuuu
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by momuuu »

tilanus wrote:Lol, @Jerom now you're acting a bit like the hypocrites I was describing. :mrgreen: Once we talk about the historical aspects of the game you dodge, but just right after you're convinced you can find actual historical sense in the game. :D

That consulate allies thing was said with a slight wink.

I don't know enough about history, but I do not that preserving history can be hurtful for a game. Thats why many RTS games are in a fantasy or futuristic setting: you won't have to take any history into account :D
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by tilanus »

How can it be hurtful? As game designer you still want to make it a great game. It's just that you use better-tasting ingredients for the soup. A better, more authentic depiction of history does not object to the possibility of creating engaging gameplays. The problem with history games that suck is not history, but designers who are incapable to combine these things well. That's just the art of game design and ES simply wasn't as good at this as for example Europa Universalis or the Total War games. They and other developers have shown that it's possible to achieve a good balance between and mix of playability and historicity in a video game. I know these games are slightly different subgenres of strategy games, but that rule applies to every genre and I think you get my point.
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Sweden leaf4
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by leaf4 »

I don't even consider EU4 and RTS or even game at that. Grass Growing Simulator IV
thebritish wrote: AA>going fortress
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by tilanus »

EU4 is TBS, AoE3 is RTS and TW is a TBS/RTS hybrid. All of them are strategy games.
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by leaf4 »

@tilanus I have close to 2000 hours on shogun2, my favorite total war because its so multiplayer focused :D
thebritish wrote: AA>going fortress
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by tilanus »

Yeah, I used to play a lot of TW games when I had more time. They fucking kick. 8-)
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Poland pecelot
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by pecelot »

iNcog wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saga_of_Erik_the_Red

http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Vindlandsaga
loool @Jerom , haven't you guys played any AoC? I'm truly disappointed :(
Netherlands momuuu
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by momuuu »

pecelot wrote:
iNcog wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saga_of_Erik_the_Red

http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Vindlandsaga
loool @Jerom , haven't you guys played any AoC? I'm truly disappointed :(

I played most of aoc before I understood English.

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