Archaic units buffs?

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Serbia Atomiswave
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Archaic units buffs?

Post by Atomiswave »

Do archaic units need tweaks/buffs, like giving halbs speed boost which will make em at least remotely usable, xbows/pike reduced wood price to make em more cost effective, or some other change? What do experts think?
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by iNcog »

halbs aren't archaic

xbows aren't very good but the civs which use them in the first place don't really need a buff :P
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by Atomiswave »

iNcog wrote:halbs aren't archaic

xbows aren't very good but the civs which use them in the first place don't really need a buff :P


Yeah, I forgot they cost gold, but that doesn't change the fact they are useless. When you think of it, halbs are worse than pikes, cause they are slower with insignificant increasement in siege potential. Higher anti-cav dam almost never comes in play, except in sudden tc popup situations.
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by pecelot »

The thing that makes melee heavy inf units weak is IMO kiting. A possible solution is a RR buff from 10 to 20% and a slight speed buff (like for halbs from 4 to 4.5) I would say :)
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by sdsanft »

I don't think halbs are as bad as people think. I was playing a 3v3 on nilla and a dude on the other team made only halbs which made my 40 cuirs almost useless for the first 30-45 seconds of every fight.
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by Atomiswave »

pecelot wrote:The thing that makes melee heavy inf units weak is IMO kiting. A possible solution is a RR buff from 10 to 20% and a slight speed buff (like for halbs from 4 to 4.5) I would say :)


Pikes have 5 speed, and still can be kited, so halb buff to 4.5 won't be enough. RR would help a bit, but i think it still won't make required difference. Maybe its a good idea to give halb 5 speed, and make them in line with pikeman.
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by sdsanft »

How fast is a skirmisher? If you make halbs just 0.5 speed faster it would help, right
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by Atomiswave »

sdsanft wrote:I don't think halbs are as bad as people think. I was playing a 3v3 on nilla and a dude on the other team made only halbs which made my 40 cuirs almost useless for the first 30-45 seconds of every fight.


How many halbs did he have and were they carded/upgraded? Same questions goes to your cuirs. Besides, who sends cuirs to halbs mass without ranged inf. support? Even better, why would you even send cuirs vs halbs knowing you won't get cost effective trade? It's a complete waste of resources, and wrong usage of cuirs.

My point is, situations like that almost never come in play in 1v1 and even 2v2 pro/med scene. I can't even remember when i saw halb last time in a game.
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by BrookG »

Rodeleros have speed 6 and they cost 100 res. They completely shred both cav and light infantry. This is archaic unit.
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by Atomiswave »

BrookG wrote:Rodeleros have speed 6 and they cost 100 res. They completely shred both cav and light infantry. This is archaic unit.


Rods are not archaic units, they cost gold.
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by pecelot »

Well, technically they are, as they fight with swords and shields ;)
I wouldn't be enough to make them viable, though it would certainly buff them. I think the EP team doesn't want to change the game that significantly, so changes like additional 0.5 speed or increasing RR by 10% would surely draw their attention as they are likely to be implemented.
Don't forget about a cover mode possibility for heavy infantry melee units.
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by Atomiswave »

pecelot wrote:Well, technically they are, as they fight with swords and shields ;)
I wouldn't be enough to make them viable, though it would certainly buff them. I think the EP team doesn't want to change the game that significantly, so changes like additional 0.5 speed or increasing RR by 10% would surely draw their attention as they are likely to be implemented.
Don't forget about a cover mode possibility for heavy infantry melee units.


I think changes we brought up wouldn't change meta at all. Halbs will always remain situational units, but with mentioned buffs they could actually be effective in certain mu's. In current state, they are useless.

Come to think of it, so many units in AOE III need tweaks/rebalancing, and for the moment that's out of patch scope.
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by Dsy »

Halb is a good unit and not archaic.
Xbow is a very weak unit definitely need a buff. It isnt good vs anything and its expensive. Small buff like i mentioned 2 times could be nice. 18 range 10%rr...
Pikes are maybe ok. Dont know that...
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by Atomiswave »

Dsy wrote:Halb is a good unit and not archaic.
Xbow is a very weak unit definitely need a buff. It isnt good vs anything and its expensive. Small buff like i mentioned 2 times could be nice. 18 range 10%rr...
Pikes are maybe ok. Dont know that...


Xbows do 1.25x dm vs heavy inf and 2.0x dm vs light cav, so they are far from useless. If adequately protected, they can dish great amount of damage to musks in age 2, which is their prime usage.

Their stats are lame though, which is understandable because they cost only 80 resources.
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by Dsy »

75 food 25 coin = 40food and wood: so its on the same price as a musketeer.
And it has 20 damage vs hi. Musket has 23 damage. 150 health vs 100. Xbow only has 1 advantage vs muskets thats the + 4 range.
But they lose cav so hard which is a huge deal cause hand cav dominate in age 2.
But i dont think i should explain how xbow bad cause there is a reason why noone makes them... :)
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by drumal »

BrookG wrote:Rodeleros have speed 6 and they cost 100 res. They completely shred both cav and light infantry. This is archaic unit.



Is it worth it? Send rods to skirms, strelets or abus?
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by BrookG »

drumal wrote:
BrookG wrote:Rodeleros have speed 6 and they cost 100 res. They completely shred both cav and light infantry. This is archaic unit.



Is it worth it? Send rods to skirms, strelets or abus?


In a mu dutch(me) vs spain, rods are very quick so I can't kite with skirms. Only if I have walls or good building placement, so they can't pass. Imo spain is underestimated, they do have strong colonial units.
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by Atomiswave »

Dsy wrote:75 food 25 coin = 40food and wood: so its on the same price as a musketeer.
And it has 20 damage vs hi. Musket has 23 damage. 150 health vs 100. Xbow only has 1 advantage vs muskets thats the + 4 range.
But they lose cav so hard which is a huge deal cause hand cav dominate in age 2.
But i dont think i should explain how xbow bad cause there is a reason why noone makes them... :)


Main reason why we don't see them often is because they cost wood. Wood is slowest gathering resource which is better spent elsewhere, so their cost effectiveness is a problem.

Nevertheless, when trained in small numbers/sent by card, xbows complement age 2 army compositions very well with their superior range. I saw quite a few pro matches(some of them H20's) where xbows were used pretty effectively. Also, don't forget Germany. if Ger somehow gets stuck in age 2, only alternative against musk type units are xbows.
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by Kaiserklein »

pikes are okayish because you train them early on, but they suck later on. That's why halbs suck, they are basically a very expansive pike, doing everything worse than a pike, except attacking non-cav units. Halbs have better damage against infantry than pikes, that's all they do better if you think about it

And yes bows just aren't cost efficient at all. But when you train them from wood crates they're really cheap, that's why they can still be kinda useful early on.
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by BrookG »

Depends on the civ and the strategy. Colonial rushes from Germans, French, (Spanish?, maybe not China) can be adequate with wood crate, behind that u can gather resources for either aging or commiting to mass, while opponent has trouble handling the rush. This kind of game doesn't need stronger pikes or xbows, is already strong.
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by Atomiswave »

Kaiserklein wrote:pikes are okayish because you train them early on, but they suck later on. That's why halbs suck, they are basically a very expansive pike, doing everything worse than a pike, except attacking non-cav units. Halbs have better damage against infantry than pikes, that's all they do better if you think about it

And yes bows just aren't cost efficient at all. But when you train them from wood crates they're really cheap, that's why they can still be kinda useful early on.


Second match you played vs Acer is good example of effective xbow usage. You had right amount, kept them protected with musks and took many free kills with kiting. Results would probably be even better, if there wasn't so much lag. It was French mirror alright, but it's completely viable age 2 tactic in some other mu's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpW7cU_z6oA

Btw, what do you think do xbows/pikes need small buff?
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by sdsanft »

Atomiswave wrote:
sdsanft wrote:I don't think halbs are as bad as people think. I was playing a 3v3 on nilla and a dude on the other team made only halbs which made my 40 cuirs almost useless for the first 30-45 seconds of every fight.


How many halbs did he have and were they carded/upgraded? Same questions goes to your cuirs. Besides, who sends cuirs to halbs mass without ranged inf. support? Even better, why would you even send cuirs vs halbs knowing you won't get cost effective trade? It's a complete waste of resources, and wrong usage of cuirs.

My point is, situations like that almost never come in play in 1v1 and even 2v2 pro/med scene. I can't even remember when i saw halb last time in a game.

His halbs had age 4 upgrade and my Cuirs had hp and attack cards. I didn't attack his mass of halbs with my Cuirs, obviously, but it meant they were just standing they're uselessly for about 45 seconds of every fight, trying to avoid the halbs. Sure, the halbs eventually died but all the while the skirms and goons on my team were taking damage from their skirms while trying to focus fire down the halbs.
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Atomiswave wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:pikes are okayish because you train them early on, but they suck later on. That's why halbs suck, they are basically a very expansive pike, doing everything worse than a pike, except attacking non-cav units. Halbs have better damage against infantry than pikes, that's all they do better if you think about it

And yes bows just aren't cost efficient at all. But when you train them from wood crates they're really cheap, that's why they can still be kinda useful early on.


Second match you played vs Acer is good example of effective xbow usage. You had right amount, kept them protected with musks and took many free kills with kiting. Results would probably be even better, if there wasn't so much lag. It was French mirror alright, but it's completely viable age 2 tactic in some other mu's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpW7cU_z6oA

Btw, what do you think do xbows/pikes need small buff?


Yeah well I think i just got way too many free kills out of those bows. If I train bows he should be able to train cav instead, and catch my army I guess. I probs made a bit of bows from wood crates and 8 bows shipment, I don't think I did a lot early on. The other bows I trained were to compete with his early skirms because I didn't have the card. At least that's what I remember of the game, maybe I'm wrong.
I think pikes are fine. They do their job, if you see what I mean. They are not a great unit but they do fine against cav and buildings, and anyway all melee inf units kinda suck so... On the other hand I think bows don't really do their job properly. I mean, they can kite musks a bit, but realistically they are a much shittier unit. They will kite musks like, 1 or 2 times ? Then musks catch up, because bows animation is shit. And then once they catch up musks are just better. So yeah, I'd like them to be buffed a bit, maybe 18 attack like on nilla or sth. Or 18 range, or 30% rr, idk
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by _H2O »

im all for a better crossbow :P
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Re: Archaic units buffs?

Post by fei123456 »

pikemen are decent units. xbow needs 1.5* heavy infantry.

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