Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by zoom »

purplesquid wrote:IMO the problem is that even culves get countered by mortars (especially with the special shot) even after all arsenal upgrades :/

I am fine with warships countering infantry and cavalry but I believe they should have a strong negative multiplier against cannons and that cannons should have an even stronger multiplier against ships.

I would be in favor of adding an 0.75 or even 0.5 artillery multiplier to the Monitor's Long-Range Shot, but not at all to any other warship attacks; I'd rather buff Artillery multipliers against ships where desirable, in addition to the Heated Shot improvement.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by zoom »

iCourt wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
iCourt wrote:You can't just get rid of schooners...


Similarly you can't just give Sioux steel traps.

When was that happening, and why bring that up?

You shouldn't just remove a game feature that has entire builds dedicated to it. Perhaps you can nerf schooners, giving it a cost reduction to fishing boats but a train time increase, or changing how much it decreases wood, etc.

The point being is just simply removing it isn't an option I'd be willing to implement. It's taking away from the game.

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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by zoom »

yemshi wrote:
zoom wrote:Balance would be perfect if every civ were identical.

That'd result in having only one civ though

could be
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by iNcog »

iCourt wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
iCourt wrote:You can't just get rid of schooners...


Similarly you can't just give Sioux steel traps.

When was that happening, and why bring that up?

You shouldn't just remove a game feature that has entire builds dedicated to it. Perhaps you can nerf schooners, giving it a cost reduction to fishing boats but a train time increase, or changing how much it decreases wood, etc.

The point being is just simply removing it isn't an option I'd be willing to implement. It's taking away from the game.


Naturally, what you say makes perfect sense.

We could not ask for a better trial for AOE3 game design.

Notwithstanding, if we agree to the notion that Schooners should not be removed, it will surely need to be reworked.

In the sense that the current consensus seems to be that going for a Fish boom should be viable without investing in schooners.

Perhaps the option to consider should be the following:

- Fishing boats: cost 70w
- Schooners: cost to 40w

That would keep the current water builds intact, unchanged compared to how things are done today. At the same time, other civilizations without schooners suddenly have more options available to them.

If we just "fix" Warships from there, then perhaps more balanced water could be obtained.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Tbh fishing boats aren't a problem at all, we shouldn't touch schooners or the fishing boat's prize.
The real problem is ws being too strong, basically if you lose the sea you can't take it back.

What we could do is giving ws x0.01 vs vills and docks, so you can't prevent towers or docks after you win a sea war.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by momuuu »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Tbh fishing boats aren't a problem at all, we shouldn't touch schooners or the fishing boat's prize.
The real problem is ws being too strong, basically if you lose the sea you can't take it back.

What we could do is giving ws x0.01 vs vills and docks, so you can't prevent towers or docks after you win a sea war.

Nothing is a problem to be honest, at least in terms of balance. I believe I made quite a few posts explaining why schooners is a problem, and why I believe it to be the core of the problem.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by pecelot »

lol it's bs, then you won't be able to destroy opponent's docks at all.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by pecelot »

I thought of removing the negative multiplier for mortars against ships so that they can actually fight pretty qually range-wise. It's pretty logical as well ā€” monitors have mortars, too, wrecking other mortars, so why not go other way round?
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Jerom wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Tbh fishing boats aren't a problem at all, we shouldn't touch schooners or the fishing boat's prize.
The real problem is ws being too strong, basically if you lose the sea you can't take it back.

What we could do is giving ws x0.01 vs vills and docks, so you can't prevent towers or docks after you win a sea war.

Nothing is a problem to be honest, at least in terms of balance. I believe I made quite a few posts explaining why schooners is a problem, and why I believe it to be the core of the problem.

Well, we ofc want to nerf op things, and schooners isn t really op, you gotta invest a shipment which could be 700w or 5v, then 2-3 docks which could be a tp line instead.
Schooners is really not op, the sea isn t op on most map anyway.
The problem is that to beat a water boom, most of the time you need to make WS and when you lose the water, you can t take it back.
That's what we should fix.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by Atomiswave »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Jerom wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Tbh fishing boats aren't a problem at all, we shouldn't touch schooners or the fishing boat's prize.
The real problem is ws being too strong, basically if you lose the sea you can't take it back.

What we could do is giving ws x0.01 vs vills and docks, so you can't prevent towers or docks after you win a sea war.

Nothing is a problem to be honest, at least in terms of balance. I believe I made quite a few posts explaining why schooners is a problem, and why I believe it to be the core of the problem.

Well, we ofc want to nerf op things, and schooners isn t really op, you gotta invest a shipment which could be 700w or 5v, then 2-3 docks which could be a tp line instead.
Schooners is really not op, the sea isn t op on most map anyway.
The problem is that to beat a water boom, most of the time you need to make WS and when you lose the water, you can t take it back.
That's what we should fix.


Yeah, like you vs Kynesie in winter tourney. How would you fix it, any suggestions?
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by britishmusketeer »

Atomiswave wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Well, we ofc want to nerf op things, and schooners isn t really op, you gotta invest a shipment which could be 700w or 5v, then 2-3 docks which could be a tp line instead.
Schooners is really not op, the sea isn t op on most map anyway.
The problem is that to beat a water boom, most of the time you need to make WS and when you lose the water, you can t take it back.
That's what we should fix.


Yeah, like you vs Kynesie in winter tourney. How would you fix it, any suggestions?

he already suggested giving ws negative vs docks but that wouldn't help you build it since the ws would just shoot the vills. aoe3 is just unusual in that water is not mandatory and that warships have no counter.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by zoom »

Atomiswave wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Well, we ofc want to nerf op things, and schooners isn t really op, you gotta invest a shipment which could be 700w or 5v, then 2-3 docks which could be a tp line instead.
Schooners is really not op, the sea isn t op on most map anyway.
The problem is that to beat a water boom, most of the time you need to make WS and when you lose the water, you can t take it back.
That's what we should fix.


Yeah, like you vs Kynesie in winter tourney. How would you fix it, any suggestions?

By aging.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by momuuu »

By doing the petard culverin assault. LordRahpael showed us the way.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Petard/culv wouldn't work vs freagates/monitors.
Just give them a negative multiplier vs docks and vills then, this means that you can build docks and towers easily.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by Aizamk »

Vills going to get hit in the face by cannonballs 100x and not die?

Much realistic
oranges.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Aizamk wrote:Vills going to get hit in the face by cannonballs 100x and not die?

Much realistic

Who cares? :P
Caravels are cheaper than falcs while they have many cannons.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by Aizamk »

Magical horses which pull cannons and then disappear are more expensive to get than boats.
oranges.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by deleted_user »

If I were more motivated, I'd make several gifs of poor villagers getting blown away by cannon balls. They sacrifice so much. RIP villagers, I expect you to risk your lives gathering resouces in unsecure locations then suicide into canons to mele for more advanced units to survive. It's the ultimate sacrifice.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Boats being too good vs docks is also an issue for the sea player btw.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by pecelot »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Well, we ofc want to nerf op things, and schooners isn t really op, you gotta invest a shipment which could be 700w or 5v, then 2-3 docks which could be a tp line instead.

Ofc you have to invest in houses to make population space for fishing ships, but that's not the case. The thing is that they give you a huge eco boost by sending just one age 1 card. If we look at this issue in that way, docks and fishing ships will grant you some XP so that you can send 700w, 600w and other important age 2 cards sooner.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

pecelot wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Well, we ofc want to nerf op things, and schooners isn t really op, you gotta invest a shipment which could be 700w or 5v, then 2-3 docks which could be a tp line instead.

Ofc you have to invest in houses to make population space for fishing ships, but that's not the case. The thing is that they give you a huge eco boost by sending just one age 1 card. If we look at this issue in that way, docks and fishing ships will grant you some XP so that you can send 700w, 600w and other important age 2 cards sooner.

If we consider a 3 tp map, a fre can ff with 3 upgraded tp at 7:30.
So at 7:30 he has 22cdb (=27.5v)+3tps (=10v), so that's almost 40v. At 7:30 the sea player would have the same but wouldn't even be close to age 3 lol.
Training units and building raxes/stables also gives you a lot of exp, a lot more than water booming.
Really, schooners isn't op. If you make 20 boats (which is what you want to make on EP maps), you gotta invest in 3docks, 600w, and 20 boats, +800w=1400w, and upgrades, 1690w, 290g, and the shipment which could be 700g.
1690w+990g for 20boats (and no they don t gather faster than vills), how is it op?

As I said, what is op is the WS coz you can invest in the water and you don t need units to protect your vills, but remove freagates and caravels and nobody would take the sea in competitive games.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by pecelot »

Harrassing water isn't as easy as harrassing TPs. With upgrades you still get 20 more vills than your opponent. You wrote a counter-build to water, but still ā€” cuirassiers are overpowered, but you can counter them with goons. Does it make cuirs no-OP?
The thing about schooners is that it reduces the cost of fishing ships by 60%. Going water without it is impossible and with it is too easy. It helps you boom on water so significantly that it can be clasified as OP, as it was mentioned several times in this thread.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by IP Man »

pecelot wrote:Harrassing water isn't as easy as harrassing TPs. With upgrades you still get 20 more vills than your opponent. You wrote a counter-build to water, but still ā€” cuirassiers are overpowered, but you can counter them with goons. Does it make cuirs no-OP?
The thing about schooners is that it reduces the cost of fishing ships by 60%. Going water without it is impossible and with it is too easy. It helps you boom on water so significantly that it can be clasified as OP, as it was mentioned several times in this thread.

You lose because you try to outboom them, not because the water is too strong. Those who go water go schooners-700w-600w and vills on wood. With france you will go 4-700w-2 caravels to win.
They will use their wood on docks instead of barracks/stable which means you can just camp under their TC with your army and win.With 4 vills you will be able to match their starting sea economy and with 700 wood you can add infastructure and make units. with 2 caravels you push the sea and with your land army you push in their TC.


The only problem is the warships being too strong, not the sea giving you too big of an economy. (making 40 boats which count as 30 vills isnt very strong because you will have to delet atleast half of them once the fish is gone.)
By nerfing the warships against artilery (giving them 0.1x multiplier vs artilery instead of 0.5x), and fixing their RoF or damage stat wise, t
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

@Pecelot But you can counter the sea without schooners. Of course you can't take it with fre or ger but you can't outboom jap as otto for example, does it mean that it is unfair?
No, they're just different civs.

@IP Man if you give WS a negative multiplier vs artillery, the sea wouldn't be viable either. Culvs rape boats, the thing is that you spend 2 shipments and around 2000 resources in ship upgrades, so ofc they beat artillery at the end.
The only thing we could about this is preventing ships from dodging mortars shots (because atm you can't touch them if they're microed). Also I think you should pay to repair your boats.

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