Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by Atomiswave »

pecelot wrote:
Jerom wrote:Then theres the second thing that makes it stupid: Warships rek everything and even do well against their hypothetical counters in culverins. The result is that you can just with your ships in the pond and your 40w fishing boats, chill around some, laghack some, build your town next to the share and you'll be almost unkillable. Its just stupid in terms of design and there's a reason why many people dont like playing against water play.

I think it's not that broken. Culverins wreck ships as you need two shots to kill a caravel, which in itself is a big investment (reminder: 300w & 100c). Later on culverins become less viable, as a water player gets an access to frigates, which can snipe some artillery units using their broadside attack and a slight range advantage, and monitors, which can just crush them with their special bombard attack. So you either have to mix other artillery units such as mortars, which in spite of their 0.5x multiplier still deal some damage, or build TCs and outposts quickly (spam 3 of them with 4 vills on each so that the enemy can deny them).

lordraphael wrote:remove offshore support ==> first step in the right direction

Hm, it's a nice idea, but it's not that much significant I feel because of the micro on water, which doesn't involve kiting with the range advantage.

Atomiswave wrote:If you remove scooners and standardize fishing boat price you practically remove big chunk of "naval civ" etiquette. There is a reason why some civs have scooners and generally better naval cards.

Also, AOE II is not good comparison, because you have quite a few naval oriented civs in AOE II.

Yeah, tell me more about Russian navy being superior to French or almighty Aztecs which destroyed the Spanish Great Armada.

It is, because the strenght of a civ on water comes from its unique civ bonus, not by the access to cheaper fishing ships by 60%.


Who talked about historical accuracy here? We are talking about balance right?

Civs like ports have schooners because they were very food intensive(less in ep patch and new maps) and could easily starve out(which readily happened on re patch and maps), so schooners is another viable way for them to get food. Brits and Russians have similiar problem. Only issue here is that you have to go all in with water, while semi option is not optimal. That should be fixed.

As for AOE II, yeah, unique civ bonuses are a big factor. Its enough to mention Vikings with their unique Longboat units and cheaper naval units overall. Probably best AOE II naval civ...
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by Atomiswave »

Method_man714 wrote:
Jerom wrote:
Method_man714 wrote:Any nerf to water will kill any viability it has

Yeah I would agree, which is why we have to remove schooners (or nerf schooners) and then make fishing boats have a viable cost. I'm thinking about 70w.[/quote
if you do that, you might as well remove water from the maps, which is what you all want anyway


Why not go with middle ground which i presented earlier. 30w for civs with schooners, 70w for everyone else.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by zoom »

Goodspeed wrote:
forgrin wrote:Water is fundamentally broken; I don't think many diagree on that point. I think that possibly the next adventure for the patch team should be looking into water balance. I know, the EP is all about land 1v1 and not affecting the meta blah blah blah, but I think some good could come out of a major water patch and might actually bring players to the EP that didn't see the point beforehand.

Believe me I am trying :(

Internal poll back in February:

Image

We could do some really cool stuff with water, making it an actual option to incorporate into economically focused build orders, but it seems people are unwilling at this time. But perhaps in the future. @breeze I'm not sure why you are assuming a nerf. Water is already extremely rare and only viable on maps which are specifically made for it.

I particularly like how you voted once for "yes" and nine times for "not yet".

Just as I am in favor of EP policy changing from essentially "changing as little as possible" to essentially "gradually changing everything that has clear improvement potential", I am in favor of revamping water in some aspects. I think only relatively few changes are even necessary. I'm very hesitant towards removing shipments, however.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

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Atomiswave wrote:As for AOE II, yeah, unique civ bonuses are a big factor. Its enough to mention Vikings with their unique Longboat units and cheaper naval units overall. Probably best AOE II naval civ...

They surely are the best naval civ in AoC, but it's not due to their Longboats. They are only available once you built a castle, at which time you probably have a lot of galleys or war galleys. Longboat access also cost you some resources and idle dock time, so I don't think it's a case for the Vikings overall water strenght, which rather comes from their stacked bonuses: warships cost reduced by 20%, docks being 25% cheaper and additionally free wheelbarrow and hand cart, which boost their eco.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by zoom »

Goodspeed wrote:People always assume we want to nerf water, I've tried to explain that's not what I would personally aim for and I don't think anyone on the team would. Water needs to be redesigned entirely, and like Jerom I'm all for removing schooners and making water something you can add, not something you have to commit to. 60w or 70w fishing boats without any cards sent could go a long way there. A warship nerf (at least against land) does seem necessary.

I'm confident you only need to nerf Offshore Support & Euro-trash Cannons, as well as buff the artillery and building counters (at least in the late-game). I insist on the concept of warships decimating land units, in terms both of balance and design.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

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Let's say standard cost for fishing boats get reduced to 70w and schooner to 35w. Warship card upgrades get nerfed by 10-15%, offshore support only grants 2 extra range, dock upgrades for warships get nerfed by 10% or so (while making them cheaper). Native water dance gets nerfed as well.
Now, either water play becomes totally unavailable or maybe it becomes so appealing that even civs like French have interest in booming on water.
In any case that's just undesired imo, because not only will raise additional balance problems to solve but also will just change a whole aspect of the game for what, 20 people that are willing to play the EP unconditionally?
All those changes are simply too big for the benefit that they provide to the game at the moment. In general all this "refening for a ideal game" is going to be so much useless work if there are no people willing to play the patch anyway.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by Atomiswave »

Is it possible to redesign water to be actually be fun to play?

Edit: Garaja the wise sage has spoken, water will remain untouched.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:Let's say standard cost for fishing boats get reduced to 70w and schooner to 35w. Warship card upgrades get nerfed by 10-15%, offshore support only grants 2 extra range, dock upgrades for warships get nerfed by 10% or so (while making them cheaper). Native water dance gets nerfed as well.
Now, either water play becomes totally unavailable or maybe it becomes so appealing that even civs like French have interest in booming on water.
In any case that's just undesired imo, because not only will raise additional balance problems to solve but also will just change a whole aspect of the game for what, 20 people that are willing to play the EP unconditionally?
All those changes are simply too big for the benefit that they provide to the game at the moment. In general all this "refening for a ideal game" is going to be so much useless work if there are no people willing to play the patch anyway.

I agree, but such drastic changes are not necessary – at least not so many. I'll muster a draft for tomorrow.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by momuuu »

forgrin wrote:Other changes:
-Remove bombard attack
-Consistent RoF (why the hell is it variable in the first place) and have ship shoot all 1-side cannons in one volley, decrease overall RoF to compensate. Makes micro more rewarding.
-Boats overall move more slowly, decrease turn speed, however add slight acceleration with slightly higher capped speed

I agree with the consistent RoF change, but making the boats move more slowly probably decreases opportunities to do anything but attack move with them. I do think playing around with their movement to make boats feel more consistent could be good. Maybe reduce the boat size (especially that of frigates) so that they don't bump into eachother. The most annoynig thing really is the way they have to set up to fight eachother by turning sidewards and thus being basically rendered immobile. Warships are really particularily unfun to use, even more so now that I think through these things more.

pecelot wrote:
Jerom wrote:Then theres the second thing that makes it stupid: Warships rek everything and even do well against their hypothetical counters in culverins. The result is that you can just with your ships in the pond and your 40w fishing boats, chill around some, laghack some, build your town next to the share and you'll be almost unkillable. Its just stupid in terms of design and there's a reason why many people dont like playing against water play.

I think it's not that broken. Culverins wreck ships as you need two shots to kill a caravel, which in itself is a big investment (reminder: 300w & 100c). Later on culverins become less viable, as a water player gets an access to frigates, which can snipe some artillery units using their broadside attack and a slight range advantage, and monitors, which can just crush them with their special bombard attack. So you either have to mix other artillery units such as mortars, which in spite of their 0.5x multiplier still deal some damage, or build TCs and outposts quickly (spam 3 of them with 4 vills on each so that the enemy can deny them).

I did not mention broken. They aren't great against culverins no, they possibly aren't even cost effective against them but warships can hold up against culverins pretty well. Once frigates hit the field (we can assume the water player is age 3 by the time culverins are fielded) then culverins really don't do well against warships anymore, especially considering that you still have to defend them with your army, which basically dies to warships for free. But the main problem I mentioned is that this play style I described, where you just sit on the water being almost unkillable without your opponent grabbing the water (which is borderline impossible if you have control over the water), is incredibly stupid to play against. It's honestly just not interesteresting. It takes away the things that make aoe3 great and replaces them with annoying, uninteresting and boring features <imo>.

pecelot wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:If you remove scooners and standardize fishing boat price you practically remove big chunk of "naval civ" etiquette. There is a reason why some civs have scooners and generally better naval cards.
Also, AOE II is not good comparison, because you have quite a few naval oriented civs in AOE II.

Yeah, tell me more about Russian navy being superior to French or almighty Aztecs which destroyed the Spanish Great Armada.
It is, because the strenght of a civ on water comes from its unique civ bonus, not by the access to cheaper fishing ships by 60%.

Well having schooners is one of the civ bonusses that makes water civs, but only France, Germany and the asian civs are excluded from this (japan still being a pretty good water civ) and maybe sioux (although I'm not sure about that one). So yeah, removing schooners isn't going to have that much influence I believe (or at least hope).

Method_man714 wrote:
Jerom wrote:
Method_man714 wrote:Any nerf to water will kill any viability it has

Yeah I would agree, which is why we have to remove schooners (or nerf schooners) and then make fishing boats have a viable cost. I'm thinking about 70w.

if you do that, you might as well remove water from the maps, which is what you all want anyway

You don't have to be so negative about this. I dont want to remove water from the maps personally, but in its current state it is nothing but unfun. If I were to change it, I'd remove schooners and the warship effectivity against land, and then reduce fishing ship cost to a cost that makes waterbooming still viable. I would target the specific all in aspect of water, where water is all that matters and all that you can care about while completely ignoring land, and would try to change it so that waterbooming becomes an extra option to aid your land play, making the battle about both land and water.

Atomiswave wrote:Why not go with middle ground which i presented earlier. 30w for civs with schooners, 70w for everyone else.

I believe this might just still create the same shitty scenario that schooners already features: All-in water play in which you can completely neglect land control, the only real effect being that non schooner civs might have a viable water boom too. This could only work out properly if you annihilate the effectivity of warships against land, I believe. At least, if you'd agree with my original analysis of what the water problems actually are.

Garja wrote:Let's say standard cost for fishing boats get reduced to 70w and schooner to 35w. Warship card upgrades get nerfed by 10-15%, offshore support only grants 2 extra range, dock upgrades for warships get nerfed by 10% or so (while making them cheaper). Native water dance gets nerfed as well.
Now, either water play becomes totally unavailable or maybe it becomes so appealing that even civs like French have interest in booming on water.
In any case that's just undesired imo, because not only will raise additional balance problems to solve but also will just change a whole aspect of the game for what, 20 people that are willing to play the EP unconditionally?
All those changes are simply too big for the benefit that they provide to the game at the moment. In general all this "refening for a ideal game" is going to be so much useless work if there are no people willing to play the patch anyway.

That's the other part of the story. I'm personally talking about how I think water could be changed so that it becomes better/more fun. It might be way too much effort given the userbase playing the EP atm, you are absolutely right about that.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by zoom »

Method_man714 wrote:
Jerom wrote:
Method_man714 wrote:Any nerf to water will kill any viability it has

Yeah I would agree, which is why we have to remove schooners (or nerf schooners) and then make fishing boats have a viable cost. I'm thinking about 70w.

if you do that, you might as well remove water from the maps, which is what you all want anyway

Making water more viable is effectively removing it from the maps?

#damm
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by forgrin »

@Jerom the slower speed plus slower turn speed might encourage play with water where you "tack" towards enemy (move at an angle) so that you can rotate to firing position more quickly. Slower speed just makes it so movements have to be more deliberate, and so it's harder/impossible to dodge mortar shots.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

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Jerom wrote:I did not mention broken. They aren't great against culverins no, they possibly aren't even cost effective against them but warships can hold up against culverins pretty well. Once frigates hit the field (we can assume the water player is age 3 by the time culverins are fielded) then culverins really don't do well against warships anymore, especially considering that you still have to defend them with your army, which basically dies to warships for free. But the main problem I mentioned is that this play style I described, where you just sit on the water being almost unkillable without your opponent grabbing the water (which is borderline impossible if you have control over the water), is incredibly stupid to play against. It's honestly just not interesteresting. It takes away the things that make aoe3 great and replaces them with annoying, uninteresting and boring features <imo>.

Well, by the time you have frigates to defend from culverins (it means at least two), the number of culvs will have already increased as well. Fighting more than 3 culverins with your warships isn't cost-efficient. Artillery units fire immediately, while vessles have this special set-up animation as well, which makes them less effective.

Jerom wrote:Well having schooners is one of the civ bonusses that makes water civs, but only France, Germany and the asian civs are excluded from this (japan still being a pretty good water civ) and maybe sioux (although I'm not sure about that one). So yeah, removing schooners isn't going to have that much influence I believe (or at least hope).

I think that schooners card is broken itself. 100w is way too much for a fishing boat, 40w is way too few for a fishing boat. Access to that is less significant IMO.

About Garja notes:
zoom wrote:I agree, but such drastic changes are not necessary – at least not so many.

Jerom wrote:That's the other part of the story. I'm personally talking about how I think water could be changed so that it becomes better/more fun. It might be way too much effort given the userbase playing the EP atm, you are absolutely right about that.

I agree with these statements. Some changes can be implemented to balance the game, not to change it entirely. However, water is not featured so often on new maps, but it's still a big part of AoE3, a strategy game that isn't all land-based. Giving French and Germans a possibility to build some docks on a map like Adirondacks would be very nice and would result in having more strategies.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by pecelot »

forgrin wrote:Slower speed just makes it so movements have to be more deliberate, and so it's harder/impossible to dodge mortar shots.

Is it possible? I'd imagine it is, but to be honest I haven't seen anyone doing that...
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by Method_man714 »

No Jerom, plenty of people find it fun
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by Atomiswave »

@Jerom
"I would target the specific all in aspect of water, where water is all that matters and all that you can care about while completely ignoring land, and would try to change it so that waterbooming becomes an extra option to aid your land play, making the battle about both land and water."

+1

If would be awesome if ep team con accomplish this without serious imbalances and meta changes. I personally don't like to be limited with all in/all out water, mild option suits me the most, which is currently far than optimal.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by momuuu »

well I believe water's design is strongly pointing in that direction. Changing it up to be more complementary to water play is going to take quite some large changes I fear.

Even then we're probably still stuck with warships being an absolute nuisance to control. And by that point we've completely changed the way water play works. Whether such a thing is desirable is something I doubt. Good thing I don't have to make decisions like that :D
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

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Garja wrote:Let's say standard cost for fishing boats get reduced to 70w and schooner to 35w. Warship card upgrades get nerfed by 10-15%, offshore support only grants 2 extra range, dock upgrades for warships get nerfed by 10% or so (while making them cheaper). Native water dance gets nerfed as well.
Now, either water play becomes totally unavailable or maybe it becomes so appealing that even civs like French have interest in booming on water.
In any case that's just undesired imo, because not only will raise additional balance problems to solve but also will just change a whole aspect of the game for what, 20 people that are willing to play the EP unconditionally?
All those changes are simply too big for the benefit that they provide to the game at the moment. In general all this "refening for a ideal game" is going to be so much useless work if there are no people willing to play the patch anyway.

i already worked on water bo's as france, and even with 100wood cost, they are one of top water boom civ to invest, you are having 80-90 vills at 11-12 min and indrustial at 13-14 min with insta gendarme spam. if france had 70 wood cost, then they would be lame,
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

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Goodspeed wrote:
forgrin wrote:Water is fundamentally broken; I don't think many diagree on that point. I think that possibly the next adventure for the patch team should be looking into water balance. I know, the EP is all about land 1v1 and not affecting the meta blah blah blah, but I think some good could come out of a major water patch and might actually bring players to the EP that didn't see the point beforehand.

Believe me I am trying :(

Internal poll back in February:

Image

We could do some really cool stuff with water, making it an actual option to incorporate into economically focused build orders, but it seems people are unwilling at this time. But perhaps in the future. @breeze I'm not sure why you are assuming a nerf. Water is already extremely rare and only viable on maps which are specifically made for it.

because everytime, when a water game played, some are starting to cry about water being lame blah blah or stuffs like that, and with the previous balance chanings. %50 nerf to wall is pretty much unfair, it totally changes the difference between re patch and fanpatch, it could be better to make minimal changes and balance, but when you make %50 NERF it looks like absurd and nothing to respect it, it was asked to everyone? i don't think so, maybe it was asked to a few players that thinks walls are boring, so lets nerf them %50, i dont say here don't nerf the walls, you can just make wall price for 7-8 wood and make the hp same, 1500 is kinda like killing a house, which is looks pretty bad, also it's not possible to play fanpatch sometimes and when we switch the patches, seing the difference is pretty annoying, maybe just minimal changes and all would be fine?
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by forgrin »

pecelot wrote:
forgrin wrote:Slower speed just makes it so movements have to be more deliberate, and so it's harder/impossible to dodge mortar shots.

Is it possible? I'd imagine it is, but to be honest I haven't seen anyone doing that...

If your micro is really on point then you definitely can iirc. I tried to test it but apparently cpu's don't realise that you can attack ships with morts.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by iNcog »

I would suggest capping the amount of fishing boats you can make per dock.

One dock allows you to make 8 fishing boats. Reduce the wood cost of a fishing ship so that they are cheaper than normal villagers.

If you also nerf the effectiveness of warships versus land units, then it is now possible to fight land versus water, without actually going on water.

The goal of the land player would be to destroy, or prevent docks from going up. The goal of the defending water player is to defend their docks (otherwise, they cannot boom).

By design, this should work out. The difficulty would be finding the appropriate numbers:
- number of fishing boats a single dock can support,
- cost of a single fishing boat,
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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by zoom »

I think it shouldn't be viable to fight warships with infantry and cavalry; you should need to build towers or field artillery.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by zoom »

My proposal:

– Fishing Boat cost decreased from 100w to 80w.
– War Canoe range & line-of-sight decreased from 30 to 25.
– "Schooners" home-city shipment effect decreased from 60w to 30w. Now also decreases Dock cost by 40%.
– "European Cannons" home-city shipment range & line-of-sight effect decreased from +5 to +2.
– "Offshore Support" home-city shipment damage effect removed.
– "Heated Shot" improvement effect increased from 50% to 100%.

Edit: A few notes: The basic idea is to make fishing more viable in general, while maintaining pre-existing design features and making a few targeted changes to enable better countering of war ships from land. Schooners should now be an option – without being a necessity – for water play, and upgraded War Ships should be less effective against their counters. Potential additional changes would include anti-ship buffs to defensive structures as well as some artillery (particularly that lacking access to Heated Shot), and a nerf to Water Dance.

Outside of the above, I don't at all think we need to be more drastic than perhaps rebalancing some maps to feature more fish and fewer whales, as well as nerfing "Excessive Taxation" from 200% to 100% whale gather rate increase.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by iNcog »

zoom wrote:I think it shouldn't be viable to fight warships with infantry and cavalry; you should need to build towers or field artillery.


Sure, but Caravels shouldn't be age 2 Falconets which are also untouchable on water. Infantry and Cavalry cannot fight Caravels by design, due to the latter being on water.

In other words, a land army should not be impeded of being around the coast due to warships.
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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by zoom »

iNcog wrote:
zoom wrote:I think it shouldn't be viable to fight warships with infantry and cavalry; you should need to build towers or field artillery.


Sure, but Caravels shouldn't be age 2 Falconets which are also untouchable on water. Infantry and Cavalry cannot fight Caravels by design, due to the latter being on water.

In other words, a land army should not be impeded of being around the coast due to warships.

I contend that it should; you should need artillery or defensive structures to fight war ships from land. Outside of Offshore Support, Caravels are more or less fine to me.
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Re: Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

Post by pecelot »

forgrin wrote:If your micro is really on point then you definitely can iirc. I tried to test it but apparently cpu's don't realise that you can attack ships with morts.

I certainly know that you can dodge cannon shots with very fast units, like monster trucks. I'm pretty sure it's the case as well with Ottoman galleys for example.
iNcog wrote:Sure, but Caravels shouldn't be age 2 Falconets which are also untouchable on water. Infantry and Cavalry cannot fight Caravels by design, due to the latter being on water.

1 caravel requires 300w & 100c investment + 200w to make a dock. With 500w you have 2 intouchable outposts in age 2 (not counting HC shipments of something like 700w, 2 caravels or 2 outpost wagons).

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