Possible EP 1.3 focus: water rebalancing

[forgrin]

Water is fundamentally broken; I don't think many diagree on that point. I think that possibly the next adventure for the patch team should be looking into water balance. I know, the EP is all about land 1v1 and not affecting the meta blah blah blah, but I think some good could come out of a major water patch and might actually bring players to the EP that didn't see the point beforehand.

Discuss!

[zoom]

It is broken. A lot less so on EP, however. I'm not sure whether I think we should make any drastic changes to water currently.

[pecelot]

What would help in my opinion is my suggestion in the other topic about outposts' attack against fishing ships.
Other than that, I would say that water is somewhat broken because of 3 issues:
1. some civs don't have schooners and going water for them is unviable
2. there are civs with offshore support card, like Brits and Aztecs, which changes the water balance heavily in favour of them
3. you can't really micro properly on water, as the ROF of boats is not constant. Of course you can manouver one caravel around an enemy's one so that it can't shoot, but it requires a ton of APM and is not viable in bigger fights
As of right now, I can't really think of any solutions to aforementioned points without changing the game drastically. But maybe you guys will come with an interesting idea!

[britishmusketeer]

What would help in my opinion is my suggestion in the other topic about outposts' attack against fishing ships.
Other than that, I would say that water is somewhat broken because of 3 issues:
1. some civs don't have schooners and going water for them is unviable
2. there are civs with offshore support card, like Brits and Aztecs, which changes the water balance heavily in favour of them
3. you can't really micro properly on water, as the ROF of boats is not constant. Of course you can manouver one caravel around an enemy's one so that it can't shoot, but it requires a ton of APM and is not viable in bigger fights
As of right now, I can't really think of any solutions to aforementioned points without changing the game drastically. But maybe you guys will come with an interesting idea!

4.boat limit instead of costing pop
5. homecity upgrades for water in general being too strong (25% attack + hp) compared to 15% attack or hp for land units
6. monitors
7. utterly boring to play/play against
8. ws > land units kinda dumb
9) outposts don't even counter ships

[deleted_user]

if water gets more nerf, it would change the game meta,
why should we go water when there is only 2 whales and 4-5 food ?
it's already a lot of nerfed in this patch. even monitors. it could be pretty pointless to nerf more and if you try to kill warship with musketeeer, ofcoursre warship wins, if you really want to deal with warships, you can make warship and mortars, best regards.

[momuuu]

EP1.3 notes

Water Changes
Fishing boat
- Removed from the game
Warships
- Removed from the game
Indonesia
- Shoved up bram's ass

[Goodspeed]

Water is fundamentally broken; I don't think many diagree on that point. I think that possibly the next adventure for the patch team should be looking into water balance. I know, the EP is all about land 1v1 and not affecting the meta blah blah blah, but I think some good could come out of a major water patch and might actually bring players to the EP that didn't see the point beforehand.

Believe me I am trying

Internal poll back in February:



We could do some really cool stuff with water, making it an actual option to incorporate into economically focused build orders, but it seems people are unwilling at this time. But perhaps in the future. @breeze

notification

I'm not sure why you are assuming a nerf. Water is already extremely rare and only viable on maps which are specifically made for it.

[momuuu]

The thing that water would need most, I believe, is for schooners to not be so all or nothing. I think removing schooners from the game, or reworking it to be entirely different, would be the most succesful course of action. That means that you reduce the cost of fishing ships to a cost which makes a side water boom viable and an interesting way to add more eco, just like how TP booming works or how you can add eco as Brits/Japan/Dutch.

Secondly, warships need to be changed up. It is ridiculous how hard it is to gain back control over the water once you have lost it. In it's currenty state you can win a game just because you have control over the water. Warships kill shit so easily, especially with offshore support, and have no real counter. they can continuously deny attempts to set up the water because artillery is extremely inefficient against them, not to mention that if they even get damaged you can just heal them up for free at your dock. Its incredibly stupid that water is so strong without any serious support from land.

Water isn't great atm, so nerfing warships would make water play not viable. That is why I proposed the schooners change/removal: Right now, going water means you have to go all in on water because you spend an entire card on it. So you can support your water from the land and vice versa. If you remove this all in aspect of schooners, then water play becomes an options and warships can be there just to contest the water or to offer small support to the land.

I dont know how you would nerf warships in a proper fashion. I think maybe you can reduce their damage against land units and cannons in particular. Maybe the range needs to be reduced aswell? Or maybe we just need to nerf offshore support.

[Method_man714]

Any nerf to water will kill any viability it has

[Dsy]

Nerf walls - buff/rework water.

[momuuu]

Any nerf to water will kill any viability it has

Yeah I would agree, which is why we have to remove schooners (or nerf schooners) and then make fishing boats have a viable cost. I'm thinking about 70w.

[Goodspeed]

The thing that water would need most, I believe, is for schooners to not be so all or nothing. I think removing schooners from the game, or reworking it to be entirely different, would be the most succesful course of action. That means that you reduce the cost of fishing ships to a cost which makes a side water boom viable and an interesting way to add more eco, just like how TP booming works or how you can add eco as Brits/Japan/Dutch.

Secondly, warships need to be changed up. It is ridiculous how hard it is to gain back control over the water once you have lost it. In it's currenty state you can win a game just because you have control over the water. Warships kill shit so easily, especially with offshore support, and have no real counter. they can continuously deny attempts to set up the water because artillery is extremely inefficient against them, not to mention that if they even get damaged you can just heal them up for free at your dock. Its incredibly stupid that water is so strong without any serious support from land.

Water isn't great atm, so nerfing warships would make water play not viable. That is why I proposed the schooners change/removal: Right now, going water means you have to go all in on water because you spend an entire card on it. So you can support your water from the land and vice versa. If you remove this all in aspect of schooners, then water play becomes an options and warships can be there just to contest the water or to offer small support to the land.

I dont know how you would nerf warships in a proper fashion. I think maybe you can reduce their damage against land units and cannons in particular. Maybe the range needs to be reduced aswell? Or maybe we just need to nerf offshore support.

So much this

[pecelot]

if water gets more nerf, it would change the game meta,
why should we go water when there is only 2 whales and 4-5 food ?
it's already a lot of nerfed in this patch. even monitors. it could be pretty pointless to nerf more and if you try to kill warship with musketeeer, ofcoursre warship wins, if you really want to deal with warships, you can make warship and mortars, best regards.

Hard to disagree. 4 whales isn't the biggest number to be pefectly honest, them you are left with 16 fishing boats so any investment above that will have to be wasted.

Warships kill shit so easily, especially with offshore support, and have no real counter. they can continuously deny attempts to set up the water because artillery is extremely inefficient against them, not to mention that if they even get damaged you can just heal them up for free at your dock. Its incredibly stupid that water is so strong without any serious support from land.

Warships have some counters: artillery, outposts, town centers. Culverins just wreck them. Also, healing at the dock isn't the best as they do it rather slowly and you'd rather use them somewhere else than just leave them idle. EDIT: The thing is, you get access to artillery units in the Fortress Age, so you already have to invest a lot to even start producing artillery to harrass, not deny, the water play.

You shouldn't really nerf water, instead try to balance it I would suggest. Of course easier said than done, but we can at least think of some ideas.

Removing schooners is an option I kind of like. 100w for one fishing ship is not viable at all, 40w though is a big bargain to be honest. A comparison with AoC would be useful here, since every civ can go for water boom (the strenght of it is either nerfed or buffed by civ bonuses, such as idk docks training faster or something). The cost of a fishing boat there is 75w (50f for vills), but a lot more wood is chopped there, so it's cheaper than it would be in AoE3. If schooners were to be removed then, I would suggest a cost of 60-70w, with 65w being the optimal amount.

EDIT: Side note: for some civs schooners card isn't such an all-in on water choice. Russia and Ports for example, which have a spare card in age 1, can send it and still do normal agenda. I sometimes send schooners even if I'm planning to focus more on land, because it's a nice investment even if you build only one dock.

[Goodspeed]

People always assume we want to nerf water, I've tried to explain that's not what I would personally aim for and I don't think anyone on the team would. Water needs to be redesigned entirely, and like Jerom I'm all for removing schooners and making water something you can add, not something you have to commit to. 60w or 70w fishing boats without any cards sent could go a long way there. A warship nerf (at least against land) does seem necessary.

[pecelot]

@Goodspeed

notification

agree, +1, like, whatever

[momuuu]

Warships kill shit so easily, especially with offshore support, and have no real counter. they can continuously deny attempts to set up the water because artillery is extremely inefficient against them, not to mention that if they even get damaged you can just heal them up for free at your dock. Its incredibly stupid that water is so strong without any serious support from land.

Warships have some counters: artillery, outposts, town centers. Culverins just wreck them. Also, healing at the dock isn't the best as they do it rather slowly and you'd rather use them somewhere else than just leave them idle.

You shouldn't really nerf water, instead try to balance it I would suggest. Of course easier said than done, but we can at least think of some ideas.

Removing schooners is an option I kind of like. 100w for one fishing ship is not viable at all, 40w though is a big bargain to be honest. A comparison with AoC would be useful here, since every civ can go for water boom (the strenght of it is either nerfed or buffed by civ bonuses, such as idk docks training faster or something). The cost of a fishing boat there is 75w (50f for vills), but a lot more wood is chopped there, so it's cheaper than it would be in AoE3. If schooners were to be removed then, I would suggest a cost of 60-70w, with 65w being the optimal amount.[/quote]
Isn't my post exactly suggesting to not nerf it?

Water is very stupid imo. With schooners being a requirement you are all in: You have to go full water, preferably with quite a few docks. Only ports can really do a one dock water boom because they have nothing else to ship in discovery, but it's not really good at all. Combining water with land play is not possible at all imo because of this. Then theres the second thing that makes it stupid: Warships rek everything and even do well against their hypothetical counters in culverins. The result is that you can just with your ships in the pond and your 40w fishing boats, chill around some, laghack some, build your town next to the share and you'll be almost unkillable. Its just stupid in terms of design and there's a reason why many people dont like playing against water play. The result isn't only that you can't take water control when you lose it, but that the entire game is decided completely based on water control. And warship battles are incredibly stupid compared to the beauty that fights are in aoe3.

Now my line of changes suggests we adress all of these without nerfing water (by reducing fishing boat cost) and make water something that can support your play, not be the way you play on itself. Make warships something to contest this sea like you can contest trading posts with your army. That's how I'd like water to be changed personally.

[lordraphael]

remove offshore support ==> first step in the right direction

[Atomiswave]

if water gets more nerf, it would change the game meta,
why should we go water when there is only 2 whales and 4-5 food ?
it's already a lot of nerfed in this patch. even monitors. it could be pretty pointless to nerf more and if you try to kill warship with musketeeer, ofcoursre warship wins, if you really want to deal with warships, you can make warship and mortars, best regards.

Hard to disagree. 4 whales isn't the biggest number to be pefectly honest, them you are left with 16 fishing boats so any investment above that will have to be wasted.

Warships kill shit so easily, especially with offshore support, and have no real counter. they can continuously deny attempts to set up the water because artillery is extremely inefficient against them, not to mention that if they even get damaged you can just heal them up for free at your dock. Its incredibly stupid that water is so strong without any serious support from land.

Warships have some counters: artillery, outposts, town centers. Culverins just wreck them. Also, healing at the dock isn't the best as they do it rather slowly and you'd rather use them somewhere else than just leave them idle. EDIT: The thing is, you get access to artillery units in the Fortress Age, so you already have to invest a lot to even start producing artillery to harrass, not deny, the water play.

You shouldn't really nerf water, instead try to balance it I would suggest. Of course easier said than done, but we can at least think of some ideas.

Removing schooners is an option I kind of like. 100w for one fishing ship is not viable at all, 40w though is a big bargain to be honest. A comparison with AoC would be useful here, since every civ can go for water boom (the strenght of it is either nerfed or buffed by civ bonuses, such as idk docks training faster or something). The cost of a fishing boat there is 75w (50f for vills), but a lot more wood is chopped there, so it's cheaper than it would be in AoE3. If schooners were to be removed then, I would suggest a cost of 60-70w, with 65w being the optimal amount.

Side note: for some civs schooners card isn't such an all-in on water choice. Russia and Ports for example, which have a spare card in age 1, can send it and still do normal agenda. I sometimes send schooners even if I'm planning to focus more on land, because it's a nice investment even if you build only one dock.

If you remove scooners and standardize fishing boat price you practically remove big chunk of "naval civ" etiquette. There is a reason why some civs have scooners and generally better naval cards.

Also, AOC II is not good comparison, because you have quite a few naval oriented civs there.

[forgrin]

Why not split ships into different classes depending on a strength?

Caravels: all around unit. Can stay roughly as is (probably damage reduction warranted).

Galleons: strong basic attack vs units but remove vs ship multiplier, increase range resist slightly, decrease speed. New role as a shore assault boat good vs units but bad vs other boats.

Frigate: increase range slightly, dramatically lower basic attack but increase ship multipliers greatly. As with most fighting ships frigates would use culverin-like cannons as they were more effective at sea, therefore make it like a floating culverin. Perhaps make "bombard" attack higher base damage but remove anti ship multiplier so it can be used vs land units in a pinch.

Monitors: remove special attack, decrease HP, reduce cost. Make it more of a niche siege unit rather than a game-winner.


Other changes:
-Remove bombard attack
-Consistent RoF (why the hell is it variable in the first place) and have ship shoot all 1-side cannons in one volley, decrease overall RoF to compensate. Makes micro more rewarding.
-Boats overall move more slowly, decrease turn speed, however add slight acceleration with slightly higher capped speed

[momuuu]

if water gets more nerf, it would change the game meta,
why should we go water when there is only 2 whales and 4-5 food ?
it's already a lot of nerfed in this patch. even monitors. it could be pretty pointless to nerf more and if you try to kill warship with musketeeer, ofcoursre warship wins, if you really want to deal with warships, you can make warship and mortars, best regards.

Hard to disagree. 4 whales isn't the biggest number to be pefectly honest, them you are left with 16 fishing boats so any investment above that will have to be wasted.

Warships kill shit so easily, especially with offshore support, and have no real counter. they can continuously deny attempts to set up the water because artillery is extremely inefficient against them, not to mention that if they even get damaged you can just heal them up for free at your dock. Its incredibly stupid that water is so strong without any serious support from land.

Warships have some counters: artillery, outposts, town centers. Culverins just wreck them. Also, healing at the dock isn't the best as they do it rather slowly and you'd rather use them somewhere else than just leave them idle. EDIT: The thing is, you get access to artillery units in the Fortress Age, so you already have to invest a lot to even start producing artillery to harrass, not deny, the water play.

You shouldn't really nerf water, instead try to balance it I would suggest. Of course easier said than done, but we can at least think of some ideas.

Removing schooners is an option I kind of like. 100w for one fishing ship is not viable at all, 40w though is a big bargain to be honest. A comparison with AoC would be useful here, since every civ can go for water boom (the strenght of it is either nerfed or buffed by civ bonuses, such as idk docks training faster or something). The cost of a fishing boat there is 75w (50f for vills), but a lot more wood is chopped there, so it's cheaper than it would be in AoE3. If schooners were to be removed then, I would suggest a cost of 60-70w, with 65w being the optimal amount.

Side note: for some civs schooners card isn't such an all-in on water choice. Russia and Ports for example, which have a spare card in age 1, can send it and still do normal agenda. I sometimes send schooners even if I'm planning to focus more on land, because it's a nice investment even if you build only one dock.

If you remove scooners and standardize fishing boat price you practically remove big chunk of "naval civ" etiquette. There is a reason why some civs have scooners and generally better naval cards.

Also, AOE II is not good comparison, because you have quite a few naval oriented civs in AOE II.

It would be quite sad indeed, but lets be honest: the lameness of water is fueled by schooners at its core basis because schooners forces you to go all in on the water.

Mild water play, like adding a dock and making 15 fishing ships, does not exist. Theres only 4 dock water play ala OMG I HOPE HE NEVER GETS CONTROL OF THE WATER which gets extra lame because you cant contest the water from the land.

[pecelot]

Then theres the second thing that makes it stupid: Warships rek everything and even do well against their hypothetical counters in culverins. The result is that you can just with your ships in the pond and your 40w fishing boats, chill around some, laghack some, build your town next to the share and you'll be almost unkillable. Its just stupid in terms of design and there's a reason why many people dont like playing against water play.

I think it's not that broken. Culverins wreck ships as you need two shots to kill a caravel, which in itself is a big investment (reminder: 300w & 100c). Later on culverins become less viable, as a water player gets an access to frigates, which can snipe some artillery units using their broadside attack and a slight range advantage, and monitors, which can just crush them with their special bombard attack. So you either have to mix other artillery units such as mortars, which in spite of their 0.5x multiplier still deal some damage, or build TCs and outposts quickly (spam 3 of them with 4 vills on each so that the enemy can deny them).

remove offshore support ==> first step in the right direction

Hm, it's a nice idea, but it's not that much significant I feel because of the micro on water, which doesn't involve kiting with the range advantage.

If you remove scooners and standardize fishing boat price you practically remove big chunk of "naval civ" etiquette. There is a reason why some civs have scooners and generally better naval cards.

Also, AOE II is not good comparison, because you have quite a few naval oriented civs in AOE II.

Yeah, tell me more about Russian navy being superior to French or almighty Aztecs which destroyed the Spanish Great Armada.

It is, because the strenght of a civ on water comes from its unique civ bonus, not by the access to cheaper fishing ships by 60%.

[forgrin]

For fishing boats:
Remove schooners.
Cost of boats from 100w-80ish wood.
Advanced Dock reduces boat cost by another 20 or so to ~60w.
Fish patches slowly regenerate once depleted, fewer of them.
Whales deplete as well (but also slowly regenerate).

[Atomiswave]

Show hidden quotes

if water gets more nerf, it would change the game meta,
why should we go water when there is only 2 whales and 4-5 food ?
it's already a lot of nerfed in this patch. even monitors. it could be pretty pointless to nerf more and if you try to kill warship with musketeeer, ofcoursre warship wins, if you really want to deal with warships, you can make warship and mortars, best regards.

Hard to disagree. 4 whales isn't the biggest number to be pefectly honest, them you are left with 16 fishing boats so any investment above that will have to be wasted.

Warships kill shit so easily, especially with offshore support, and have no real counter. they can continuously deny attempts to set up the water because artillery is extremely inefficient against them, not to mention that if they even get damaged you can just heal them up for free at your dock. Its incredibly stupid that water is so strong without any serious support from land.

Warships have some counters: artillery, outposts, town centers. Culverins just wreck them. Also, healing at the dock isn't the best as they do it rather slowly and you'd rather use them somewhere else than just leave them idle. EDIT: The thing is, you get access to artillery units in the Fortress Age, so you already have to invest a lot to even start producing artillery to harrass, not deny, the water play.

You shouldn't really nerf water, instead try to balance it I would suggest. Of course easier said than done, but we can at least think of some ideas.

Removing schooners is an option I kind of like. 100w for one fishing ship is not viable at all, 40w though is a big bargain to be honest. A comparison with AoC would be useful here, since every civ can go for water boom (the strenght of it is either nerfed or buffed by civ bonuses, such as idk docks training faster or something). The cost of a fishing boat there is 75w (50f for vills), but a lot more wood is chopped there, so it's cheaper than it would be in AoE3. If schooners were to be removed then, I would suggest a cost of 60-70w, with 65w being the optimal amount.

Side note: for some civs schooners card isn't such an all-in on water choice. Russia and Ports for example, which have a spare card in age 1, can send it and still do normal agenda. I sometimes send schooners even if I'm planning to focus more on land, because it's a nice investment even if you build only one dock.

If you remove scooners and standardize fishing boat price you practically remove big chunk of "naval civ" etiquette. There is a reason why some civs have scooners and generally better naval cards.

Also, AOE II is not good comparison, because you have quite a few naval oriented civs in AOE II.

It would be quite sad indeed, but lets be honest: the lameness of water is fueled by schooners at its core basis because schooners forces you to go all in on the water.

Mild water play, like adding a dock and making 15 fishing ships, does not exist. Theres only 4 dock water play ala OMG I HOPE HE NEVER GETS CONTROL OF THE WATER which gets extra lame because you cant contest the water from the land.

Good points, but there has to be some workaround. Idk, maybe making water even stronger for "naval civs" while making it at least viable for others. That can be accomplished with reducing fb price for everyone to lets say 70w, while still keep schooners with changed effect to 50% cheaper fb.

[pecelot]

-Consistent RoF (why the hell is it variable in the first place) and have ship shoot all 1-side cannons in one volley, decrease overall RoF to compensate. Makes micro more rewarding.
-Boats overall move more slowly, decrease turn speed, however add slight acceleration with slightly higher capped speed

Consistent ROF is a no-brainer, but not sure whether it can be changed...
Heh, well, if you think about it, iut's indeed ridiculous that caravels and frigates have the same DPS by having the same ROF, while the second one has much more cannons to shoot from.
It was included in the Improvement Mod. Not sure how it turned out, just an interesting fact

[Method_man714]

Any nerf to water will kill any viability it has

Yeah I would agree, which is why we have to remove schooners (or nerf schooners) and then make fishing boats have a viable cost. I'm thinking about 70w.

if you do that, you might as well remove water from the maps, which is what you all want anyway