Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

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Serbia Atomiswave
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Atomiswave »

pecelot wrote:@ovi12 , arsenal costs 250w. The thing is to research such a cav tech in addition to other HC upgrades, ideally.


If you research two most common techs(caracole and rifiling) total price nears 1200r(250w for arsenal included), almost half of which is wood, which makes it even expensier. With addition of some AA tech, price could easily go over 2k r which is completely unviable, except in long team games.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Atomiswave »

Jerom wrote:I mean, I personally see the fun in the arsenal being an actual element of your strategies/build orders, like how upgrades in sc2 are a big element of your build order. It'd add yet another layer of strategy.

But that'd require moving it to colonial and then drastically decreasing the costs of many techs - something I think the EP team wouldn't be willing to do.


Kaiserklein gave good suggestion. AA card gives Arsenal wagon and/or cheaper tech prices. Also regular arsenal would benefit from overall price reduction by small amount.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by momuuu »

Atomiswave wrote:
Jerom wrote:I mean, I personally see the fun in the arsenal being an actual element of your strategies/build orders, like how upgrades in sc2 are a big element of your build order. It'd add yet another layer of strategy.

But that'd require moving it to colonial and then drastically decreasing the costs of many techs - something I think the EP team wouldn't be willing to do.


Kaiserklein gave good suggestion. AA card gives Arsenal wagon and/or cheaper tech prices. Also regular arsenal would benefit from overall price reduction by small amount.

It'd not be a bad change I think, but it'd still not end up the way I suggested in my post. Not that such a thing should be implemented, it's too large of a change I believe. But that's just me dreaming about redesigning the game so to say.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Jaeger »

zoom wrote:
ovi12 wrote:
Jerom wrote:I dont dislike the idea of making arsenal upgrades a possibly element of a build order personally. I mean, right now they are probably too expensive to warrant a card, and the basic upgrades are rather uninfluential (although maybe the cav hp is pretty good, I dont even really know what these techs do lol).

Slightly off topic: I once tried to ship AA so I could research the grenadier improved aoe tech while doing full grenadiers. You know what? That is the only tech that doesn't move to age fucking 2 when you ship AA.......


The cav HP is 10% for 300g 100w, and building the arsenal costs 300w. That's 700 resources for 10%, an age 2 cav hp card is 15%.

A Colonial age shipment is 700. Problem cannot be found?

10% hp is 33% worse than a colonial shipment
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by iNcog »

10% HP is not the only thing you can get out of an Arsenal, so saying that it's 10% HP for 700 resources does not make sense.

There were debates in the internal forums from what I recall.

Basically it was design vs patch philosophy vs arsenal.


Arguments for making Arsenal better (e.g. Arsenal Wagon with AA shipment, to make it more viable):
- It gives Europeans civilizations more options,
- It's another lever to possibly balance European civilizations (add techs, adjust the values of a certain tech, etc.)

Arguments against Arsenal change:
- It goes against European civilization design (Asian civs are the ones which obtain wagons from shipments, mostly),
- It goes against patch philosophy which is minimal adjustments for balance (has this been revisited?),
- "Unneccessary"

Naturally, I would much prefer seeing the Arsenal being buffed to the point where it's easier to invest in one.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well it would be nice but realistically there are more important things to do before. Even on the list of what's not being balanced yet, I would like to see water balanced before arsenal for example
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by iNcog »

Water is broken, but at very least you can still balance it by making good maps, which is what our friend Garja did. :D

So if someone else prefers to see arsenal before water, like me (not gonna hide it, am I? :P), then it becomes a big discussion about patch philosophy more than anything else.

Other cool shit to look at would be healing units with priests, better balloons (yes), natives, shitty cards (Medicine?!), etc.

But yeah, as I said, it's up to patch philosophy to decide what should be treated in what order, if it even deserves treatment, etc.

So now it becomes an FFA where everyone talks about what they would like to see fixed, then one poor guy has to go and set that philosophy. That person will get praised by some, flamed by others and overall we will get a lot of drama.

#popcorn
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Atomiswave »

iNcog wrote:10% HP is not the only thing you can get out of an Arsenal, so saying that it's 10% HP for 700 resources does not make sense.

There were debates in the internal forums from what I recall.

Basically it was design vs patch philosophy vs arsenal.


Arguments for making Arsenal better (e.g. Arsenal Wagon with AA shipment, to make it more viable):
- It gives Europeans civilizations more options,
- It's another lever to possibly balance European civilizations (add techs, adjust the values of a certain tech, etc.)

Arguments against Arsenal change:
- It goes against European civilization design (Asian civs are the ones which obtain wagons from shipments, mostly),
- It goes against patch philosophy which is minimal adjustments for balance (has this been revisited?),
- "Unneccessary"

Naturally, I would much prefer seeing the Arsenal being buffed to the point where it's easier to invest in one.


I overlooked this one, you are right.

Simplest way to make Arsenal viable and appealing is to reduce building and techs cost. How much is a matter for debate. For starters Arsenal cost should be reduced to 225w or even 200w. 250w is too much for building with sole purpose to research expensive and moderately useful techs. It's not even mandatory for age up, like in AOE II where you need 2 building from current age in order to go to next age. I think AOE II solved that aspect of gameplay better.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by iNcog »

^Well, even that one is up to debate, since you have Bank Wagons, Fortress Wagons, Factory Wagons, Outpost Wagons, etc.

So it's not even that far off in terms of design, it's just that those builds are unique or military buildings, whereas an Arsenal is a little more generic.

You could make the Arsenal be cheaper and build faster, for the same effect if you wanted; what's more important is that Arsenal upgrades should be more accessible than what they currently are, thus being a strategic option for European civilizations.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by pecelot »

Jerom wrote:I mean, I personally see the fun in the arsenal being an actual element of your strategies/build orders, like how upgrades in sc2 are a big element of your build order. It'd add yet another layer of strategy.

AoE3's older brother, AoC, has blacksmiths and universities and they are really cool. These little +1s matter, and a tech like ballistics changes the battles drastically.

Atomiswave wrote:If you research two most common techs(caracole and rifiling) total price nears 1200r(250w for arsenal included), almost half of which is wood, which makes it even expensier. With addition of some AA tech, price could easily go over 2k r which is completely unviable, except in long team games.

Well, it's just a price of upgrades. You don't waste the resources, you actually invest in better army. Same goes with HC shipments — instead of sending something like cav HP, you could send 700 resources.

iNcog wrote:- It goes against European civilization design (Asian civs are the ones which obtain wagons from shipments, mostly)

what a bs
Outpost wagons from the age up are almost always seen when Brits or Spain is played. 2 factories, forts, outpost wagons from shipments, a bank wagon, covered wagons for Portugese and for other civs available in HC. Even Dutch consulate gives wagons, same goes with Russian one I think.
EDIT: oh, sorry @iNcog , I haven't seen your reply, thankfully you agree it's a bs, too :D
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Atomiswave »

pecelot wrote:
Jerom wrote:I mean, I personally see the fun in the arsenal being an actual element of your strategies/build orders, like how upgrades in sc2 are a big element of your build order. It'd add yet another layer of strategy.

AoE3's older brother, AoC, has blacksmiths and universities and they are really cool. These little +1s matter, and a tech like ballistics changes the battles drastically.

Atomiswave wrote:If you research two most common techs(caracole and rifiling) total price nears 1200r(250w for arsenal included), almost half of which is wood, which makes it even expensier. With addition of some AA tech, price could easily go over 2k r which is completely unviable, except in long team games.

Well, it's just a price of upgrades. You don't waste the resources, you actually invest in better army. Same goes with HC shipments — instead of sending something like cav HP, you could send 700 resources.

iNcog wrote:- It goes against European civilization design (Asian civs are the ones which obtain wagons from shipments, mostly)

what a bs
Outpost wagons from the age up are almost always seen when Brits or Spain is played. 2 factories, forts, outpost wagons from shipments, a bank wagon, covered wagons for Portugese and for other civs available in HC. Even Dutch consulate gives wagons, same goes with Russian one I think.
EDIT: oh, sorry @iNcog , I haven't seen your reply, thankfully you agree it's a bs, too :D


Yes, techs in blacksmith and university are crucial and add another layer of strategy depth in AOE II. Having or not having ballistics, murder holes, bracer, blast furnace etc..... makes big difference, especially late game.

AOE III is in that regard different beast, because you rely on card upgrades the most, and resources are too precious for expensive Arsenal research. I can't think of other way to make arsenal viable rather than make it cheaper altogether with techs. Also wagon with AA is very good idea.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Kap_AOE3 »

So, after 4 years, what did you decide? LOL
AA with cheaper upgrades and wagon?
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

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Post by lordraphael »

lower arsenal cost to 150wood. i was surprised that its stil 250.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

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Post by dansil92 »

As much as i would love for the arsenal to be cheaper and more usable, it's a dramatically eurocentric change, and while must of the techs aren't great, counter-infantry rifling is a (situational) 50% buff. Would also mean to keep it consistent, the Dutch consulate arsenal would need to be cheapened. Lots to consider
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by lordraphael »

dansil92 wrote:As much as i would love for the arsenal to be cheaper and more usable, it's a dramatically eurocentric change, and while must of the techs aren't great, counter-infantry rifling is a (situational) 50% buff. Would also mean to keep it consistent, the Dutch consulate arsenal would need to be cheapened. Lots to consider
that is a problem indeed. on the other hand i think most civs have acces to similar upgrades via cards.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by n0el »

dansil92 wrote:As much as i would love for the arsenal to be cheaper and more usable, it's a dramatically eurocentric change, and while must of the techs aren't great, counter-infantry rifling is a (situational) 50% buff. Would also mean to keep it consistent, the Dutch consulate arsenal would need to be cheapened. Lots to consider
Well, adjusting costs of big button techs, monastery tech, consulate techs could be something to consider.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Mitoe »

150w seems a bit cheap. Maybe 200w would be reasonable. CIR and RCC are insane upgrades though, I would possibly be concerned if they became more easily accessible. Cav hp is often quite good as well.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

Depends on how often you want arsenals to be built I guess. Maybe lower the cost if you want to see them in a majority of fortress games or so. But honestly right now I build one quite often already, whenever you reach middle game and you can afford it basically.
lordraphael wrote:lower arsenal cost to 150wood. i was surprised that its stil 250.
Not sure if you know about it, but some arsenal upgrades are cheaper now. Usually the only relevant one is the cav hp for 300g, so you save 100w. Infantry breastplate is also only 100w 100g now, which can be nice for rods or lbs.
I like this better than straight up making the arsenal cheaper because CIR is really good already
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by ssaraf »

Ok, i know this is a bit off topic but, I had an idea about limiting the number of wall pieces one can build. (to combat CANCER playstyles).

1. Wall build limit can increase with age.
2. Advanced arsenal unlocks or has a tech to increase build limit.
Rest details can be discussed.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by harcha »

i think leave as is to avoid increasing the changelist
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by gamevideo113 »

I think there is already enough reasons for the arsenal to be used as it is. Depending on the situation some techs are more worthwhile than others, obviously, but there are situations where using the arsenal is basically a priority. I think every single one of the 650 res you spend to get CIR are worth spending when you’re up against a lot of HI. Likewise, a player massing goons in a team game should have getting RCC high in their priority list.
Imo what’s really lacking use are the AA/New Ways cards. If anything, those could be buffed, since shipping them and getting the upgrades too is very expensive. There is a high risk of overbuffing them in the attempt of making them more viable, though.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by zoom »

Kap_AOE3 wrote:So, after 4 years, what did you decide? LOL
AA with cheaper upgrades and wagon?
"Cavalry Cuirass" improvement cost reduced to 300c (from 100w, 300c)
"Incendiary Grenades" improvement cost reduced to 250w, 250c (from 400w, 300c)
"Infantry Breastplate" improvement cost reduced to 100w, 100c (from 200w, 200c)
"Socket Bayonet" improvement cost reduced to 200w, 200c (from 400w, 400c)
lordraphael wrote:lower arsenal cost to 150wood. i was surprised that its stil 250.
For EP7, I went with the most obvious changes. This remains an option, too. Does the Arsenal warrant being more viable?
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by deleted_user »

Hum? The arsenal is fine
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Yeah I think it's fine. We had a period where CIR also added as x1.0 multiplier to dragoons and in that period we saw an arsenal in most games that went to the mid fortress age.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

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Post by _H2O »

I think the arsenal is actually quite good at the right moment. People are not aware enough of it to say it’s not useful.

Techs that are useful: CIR, goon range, cav Hp.

It saves food to use the techs which is really important.

Sending AA is just not useful until end game because the new techs you can almost get for free by just sending a combat card.

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