Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

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Serbia Atomiswave
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Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Atomiswave »

In current meta we rarely see Arsenal being built, except in some drawn out team games. Maybe techs should be cheaper and more impactful? Maybe arsenal building itself should be cheaper? Opinions are welcome.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by pecelot »

In 1v1 matches I think they are built in mid fortress when players start to chop more wood and it becomes more affordable. Also such little upgrades can be significant in row numbers, which many seem to realise.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by forgrin »

Arsenal itself is too expensive and you really need to send AA to get the full benefits. If the AA card just had a wagon it'd be way better, or reduce price of arsenal itself to 100w. The upgrades themselves are good (especially the goon one).
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by glorious_ »

until end III or beginning of IV its just too expensive... I had some team games as brit where I did advanced arsenal in age 2 because I couldnt age... but its rare
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Atomiswave »

pecelot wrote:In 1v1 matches I think they are built in mid fortress when players start to chop more wood and it becomes more affordable. Also such little upgrades can be significant in row numbers, which many seem to realise.


It strongly depends from mu's. Civs that have useful imp cards spread through first 3 ages can do without arsenal, but civs like Ger and Ports need arsenal in late age 3 in order to upgrade their skirmisher line units, cause they have no cards for it, and aging to industrial is not always an option.

Question is, does it pay off to build arsenal only for counter infantry rifling? Probably not, but usually you research more techs like caracole and cuirass, so it can be useful.

Advanced arsenal is another story, because it's full card investment + additional resources spent for researching new techs, which is overall pretty expensive. It's not worth it.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

Tbh that's always the same discussions, I'm pretty sure there already are 2 topics about this. The AA card should probs give an arsenal wagon and/or cheaper techs because atm it's not a viable card before late game
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Atomiswave »

Kaiserklein wrote:Tbh that's always the same discussions, I'm pretty sure there already are 2 topics about this. The AA card should probs give an arsenal wagon and/or cheaper techs because atm it's not a viable card before late game


Good ideas.

Would it be too much to unlock AA for every civ without the need of card, so we have all techs available if arsenal is built? That way there is much more incentive to build it.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by momuuu »

The thing about the Arsenal and AA techs is that they are rather expensive for how specific they are, and by the time you'd send those in a 1v1 the natural resources are running out so you can't really spare all those resources it costs.

And for team games Advanced Arsenal isn't that great since it's all about the goons which dont benefit from AA. I do believe people get the goon range from the arsenal in teamgames quite frequently.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Atomiswave »

Jerom wrote:The thing about the Arsenal and AA techs is that they are rather expensive for how specific they are, and by the time you'd send those in a 1v1 the natural resources are running out so you can't really spare all those resources it costs.

And for team games Advanced Arsenal isn't that great since it's all about the goons which dont benefit from AA. I do believe people get the goon range from the arsenal in teamgames quite frequently.


Completely agree with you, arsenal research is way to expensive for current meta. It would be great if ep team finds the way to tweak arsenal and make it more than niche feature, which exactly is in current state.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

Atomiswave wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Tbh that's always the same discussions, I'm pretty sure there already are 2 topics about this. The AA card should probs give an arsenal wagon and/or cheaper techs because atm it's not a viable card before late game


Good ideas.

Would it be too much to unlock AA for every civ without the need of card, so we have all techs available if arsenal is built? That way there is much more incentive to build it.

Well the thing is AA also lets you get an arsenal in colonial age, so if you auto unlock it, it means the arsenal is always unlocked for age 2 ?
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by momuuu »

I dont dislike the idea of making arsenal upgrades a possibly element of a build order personally. I mean, right now they are probably too expensive to warrant a card, and the basic upgrades are rather uninfluential (although maybe the cav hp is pretty good, I dont even really know what these techs do lol).

Slightly off topic: I once tried to ship AA so I could research the grenadier improved aoe tech while doing full grenadiers. You know what? That is the only tech that doesn't move to age fucking 2 when you ship AA.......
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Atomiswave »

Kaiserklein wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Tbh that's always the same discussions, I'm pretty sure there already are 2 topics about this. The AA card should probs give an arsenal wagon and/or cheaper techs because atm it's not a viable card before late game


Good ideas.

Would it be too much to unlock AA for every civ without the need of card, so we have all techs available if arsenal is built? That way there is much more incentive to build it.

Well the thing is AA also lets you get an arsenal in colonial age, so if you auto unlock it, it means the arsenal is always unlocked for age 2 ?


Completely forgot about that. Having AA for every civ in age 2 is a big mess. Maybe there is a way around it, but i digress, your arsenal wagon idea sounds really good. That way you at least save 250w which is not small investment.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Dsy »

Arsenal wagon idea was mine long time ago...
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by momuuu »

Even advanced arsenal for all civs in age 2 would be great imo. Just imagine the BO possibilities! maybe you ship 600w and then get an arsenal + an musk attack upgrade for a timing or something.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Dsy »

AA gives aresnal wagon
Inf breastplate - 15% hp
Bayonet - 200w 200c - 15% damage
Flint lock - 200w 200c - 15% - remove musketer tag
Paper cartridge 200w 200c - 15% - remove musketer tag
Cav cuirass - 15%
Prof gunners - 15%
Trunion - 200w 200c

Maybe bayonet should give 15% overall damage for both ranged and melee...
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

Why "remove musk tag" ?
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by pecelot »

Jerom wrote:And for team games Advanced Arsenal isn't that great since it's all about the goons which dont benefit from AA. I do believe people get the goon range from the arsenal in teamgames quite frequently.

Well, in terms of late game, you gain x1.25 multiplier for heavy cav against building, which may occur useful when you're playing France or Russia. Moreover, you get access to 2 ranged infantry and 1 infantry upgrades, which are very strong, and 2 similar HP and speed techs for artillery, beneficial as well.

Kaiserklein wrote:Well the thing is AA also lets you get an arsenal in colonial age, so if you auto unlock it, it means the arsenal is always unlocked for age 2 ?

If so, I would suggest unlocking AA techs only in fortress age and giving an access to the standard ones in colonial, or something like that. Free AA in Age 2 seems a little bit OP for me, but idk, it's already a big investment.

Jerom wrote:Slightly off topic: I once tried to ship AA so I could research the grenadier improved aoe tech while doing full grenadiers. You know what? That is the only tech that doesn't move to age fucking 2 when you ship AA.......

Yeah, that sucks, I think it's a bug actually.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by momuuu »

pecelot wrote:
Jerom wrote:And for team games Advanced Arsenal isn't that great since it's all about the goons which dont benefit from AA. I do believe people get the goon range from the arsenal in teamgames quite frequently.

Well, in terms of late game, you gain x1.25 multiplier for heavy cav against building, which may occur useful when you're playing France or Russia. Moreover, you get access to 2 ranged infantry and 1 infantry upgrades, which are very strong, and 2 similar HP and speed techs for artillery, beneficial as well.

Kaiserklein wrote:Well the thing is AA also lets you get an arsenal in colonial age, so if you auto unlock it, it means the arsenal is always unlocked for age 2 ?

If so, I would suggest unlocking AA techs only in fortress age and giving an access to the standard ones in colonial, or something like that. Free AA in Age 2 seems a little bit OP for me, but idk, it's already a big investment.

Jerom wrote:Slightly off topic: I once tried to ship AA so I could research the grenadier improved aoe tech while doing full grenadiers. You know what? That is the only tech that doesn't move to age fucking 2 when you ship AA.......

Yeah, that sucks, I think it's a bug actually.

Yeah it's probably a bug. And it's true that AA can be good when the teamgames evolve past the goon spam. In treaty games, AA is viewed as one of the best cards in the game actually. But the stage in sup games where it is useful doesn't really happen as often.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by pecelot »

Hm, if you think of it, it's a nice card in team games as well. They often go past mid fortress AFAIK, so then upgrades like 10% HP and 15% attack for gunpowder units + 10% speed boost in addition to 10% HP and 15% speed boost for artillery become viable, as players start to accumulate more resources — not the sheer number of units is crucial, but also the upgrades, which AA gives.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:Why "remove musk tag" ?

Why remove that which does not exist in the first place indeed...
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by forgrin »

AA overall isn't really necessary in 1v1 sup, it's got some cool features but can really start messing with balance if it becomes too commonplace. This applies really to the arsenal as a whole. I think the only consistently good upgrade is the goon one, and situationally counter infantry rifling (which is really good against Japan).
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

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Jerom wrote:I dont dislike the idea of making arsenal upgrades a possibly element of a build order personally. I mean, right now they are probably too expensive to warrant a card, and the basic upgrades are rather uninfluential (although maybe the cav hp is pretty good, I dont even really know what these techs do lol).

Slightly off topic: I once tried to ship AA so I could research the grenadier improved aoe tech while doing full grenadiers. You know what? That is the only tech that doesn't move to age fucking 2 when you ship AA.......


The cav HP is 10% for 300g 100w, and building the arsenal costs 300w. That's 700 resources for 10%, an age 2 cav hp card is 15%.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by zoom »

ovi12 wrote:
Jerom wrote:I dont dislike the idea of making arsenal upgrades a possibly element of a build order personally. I mean, right now they are probably too expensive to warrant a card, and the basic upgrades are rather uninfluential (although maybe the cav hp is pretty good, I dont even really know what these techs do lol).

Slightly off topic: I once tried to ship AA so I could research the grenadier improved aoe tech while doing full grenadiers. You know what? That is the only tech that doesn't move to age fucking 2 when you ship AA.......


The cav HP is 10% for 300g 100w, and building the arsenal costs 300w. That's 700 resources for 10%, an age 2 cav hp card is 15%.

A Colonial age shipment is 700. Problem cannot be found?
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by pecelot »

@ovi12 , arsenal costs 250w. The thing is to research such a cav tech in addition to other HC upgrades, ideally.
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Re: Arsenal & advanced arsenal discussion

Post by momuuu »

I mean, I personally see the fun in the arsenal being an actual element of your strategies/build orders, like how upgrades in sc2 are a big element of your build order. It'd add yet another layer of strategy.

But that'd require moving it to colonial and then drastically decreasing the costs of many techs - something I think the EP team wouldn't be willing to do.

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