Would you like to see this Arsenal rework in ESOC Patch?

[Atomiswave]

You cant increase the wall cost general without ceperate pillar and segment cost. Or at least its not beginner friendly if you do it.
Just like 10w for both. Yes its game knowledge to know how to delete pillars effectively, but its necessary to do then or you lose a lot of wood. And if you want make a game more popular you just cant say the new player how add hotkeys for select all pillars to delete them fast cause those contest of the game basicly bad designed and you win a lot of wood with it. Their face is until hear it is like "wtf". And i think we dont want disappoint the newcoming players with these things. We have tools to fix it! So make it beginner frinedly, noone lose with it anything.

Fix what? The possibility to improve by learning, training and performance?

It doesn't have anything to do with learning and getting better. It's a gimmicky bug that should be fixed and streamlined.

[zoom]

Oh but it does. How long have you known about it, for example? Have you perfected it since? Does it require APM?

[Atomiswave]

Oh but it does. How long have you known about it, for example? Have you perfected it since? Does it require APM?

I am all for hidden tricks that require knowledge and skill, but wall thing is more price discrepancy than anything else.

[zoom]

Oh but it does. How long have you known about it, for example? Have you perfected it since? Does it require APM?

I am all for hidden tricks that require knowledge and skill, but wall thing is more price discrepancy than anything else.

It is both. I'm not sure there's any reason to change it though.

[Atomiswave]

Oh but it does. How long have you known about it, for example? Have you perfected it since? Does it require APM?

I am all for hidden tricks that require knowledge and skill, but wall thing is more price discrepancy than anything else.

It is both. I'm not sure there's any reason to change it though.

It's a bit convoluted aspect of the game. I would streamline it for the sake of new players. Building a wall should be rudimentary operation, just send the vill and build the damn thing. There are many other areas where skill is involved, no need to complicate basic things.

[iCourt]

Arsenal thread. Wall discussion you can create a new thread or move this conversation to the one that occurred a month or two ago.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Building a good wall is hard to do, it take like 10 sec instead of 2-3 if you don't fail.
If you can't do it, then pay the expansive wall lol. The EP isn't a noob friendly thing, it is a competitive patch.

[Dsy]

"The EP isn't a noob friendly thing". People crying after old players leave play other game for a while or something else; there are no new players and the game dies.
And make a game more enjoyable and competitive dont clash each other. H2O doesnt delete walls neither. He isnt a competitive player then, right?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Well that shows that it is hard to do in a real game if even h2o doesn't do it.
I haven t said that people who don t do it are bad. Your argument was like «fix it, it is too hard to do and unfair for noobs».
We should also forbid the microgestion in tourneys, too hard to do.

[iNcog]

Either way, it's off topic in this discussion.

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Show hidden quotes

Oh but it does. How long have you known about it, for example? Have you perfected it since? Does it require APM?

I am all for hidden tricks that require knowledge and skill, but wall thing is more price discrepancy than anything else.

It is both. I'm not sure there's any reason to change it though.

It's a bit convoluted aspect of the game. I would streamline it for the sake of new players. Building a wall should be rudimentary operation, just send the vill and build the damn thing. There are many other areas where skill is involved, no need to complicate basic things.

Well, it is a rudimentary operation. Pillar deletion is optional and rewards knowledge, skill and multi-tasking. It may be a bug, though I don't know that the very fact means it needs fixing. Your only argument as far as I can tell is that walling having a higher skill-ceiling is bad.

[Atomiswave]

@zoom

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No mr.zoom, my only argument is that you shouldn't need to micro in order to build wall without resource loss. Anyway, enough about the issue, we are deep into off topic already.

[zoom]

@zoom

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No mr.zoom, my only argument is that you shouldn't need to micro in order to build wall without resource loss. Anyway, enough about the issue, we are deep into off topic already.

I understand. I just don't understand how that's an argument. It seems more like an opinion than its supporting argument to me.

Yeah, maybe I should make a new thread...

[iNcog]

Well, it is a rudimentary operation. Pillar deletion is optional and rewards knowledge, skill and multi-tasking. It may be a bug, though I don't know that the very fact means it needs fixing. Your only argument as far as I can tell is that walling having a higher skill-ceiling is bad.

Nah, I would say it only rewards APM or people who are patient enough to go through with it in order to save a little wood.

But this is, once more, off topic.

[zoom]

Well, it is a rudimentary operation. Pillar deletion is optional and rewards knowledge, skill and multi-tasking. It may be a bug, though I don't know that the very fact means it needs fixing. Your only argument as far as I can tell is that walling having a higher skill-ceiling is bad.

Nah, I would say it only rewards APM or people who are patient enough to go through with it in order to save a little wood.

But this is, once more, off topic.

Right, but then you are failing to realize that it additionally rewards both knowledge of the feature and practice of execution.

[iNcog]

Yes, but that kind of knowledge is trivial compared to other things to know about. I may also argue that "practice of execution" is also just APM.

[zoom]

Yes, but that kind of knowledge is trivial compared to other things to know about. I may also argue that "practice of execution" is also just APM.

That makes for a very biased argument though; APM expended in games already played is undeniably separate from APM in an actual game that is being played – the former is past execution and the latter current.

[iNcog]

It doesn't take much practice, if at all, to use the walling bug; it just requires time. Regardless of how much you practice, I may as well add: e.g. diarouga explaining that it takes 10 sec of time instead of 3 sec.

[zoom]

Exactly; without practice it takes so much time that it's less or even non-effective. The skill ceiling for it is quite high.

[Atomiswave]

It doesn't take much practice, if at all, to use the walling bug; it just requires time. Regardless of how much you practice, I may as well add: e.g. diarouga explaining that it takes 10 sec of time instead of 3 sec.

Wall tinghy is a unneeded waste of time. There are so many other operations in game where skill and knowledge are involved, than building a simple wall without losing some wood in process.

[iNcog]

Yeah that argument has some credit to it. Personally, I don't care all that much about it.

[zoom]

It doesn't take much practice, if at all, to use the walling bug; it just requires time. Regardless of how much you practice, I may as well add: e.g. diarouga explaining that it takes 10 sec of time instead of 3 sec.

Wall tinghy is a unneeded waste of time. There are so many other operations in game where skill and knowledge are involved, than building a simple wall without losing some wood in process.

Right, so how is that an argument against there being one more operation?

[britishmusketeer]

Wall tinghy is a unneeded waste of time. There are so many other operations in game where skill and knowledge are involved, than building a simple wall without losing some wood in process.

your argument isn't the reason that it is bad. The reason is that walls are too strong in general so being able to full wall your base for half the cost, whilst making the wall stronger and saving vill seconds is not a good thing.

[Atomiswave]

It doesn't take much practice, if at all, to use the walling bug; it just requires time. Regardless of how much you practice, I may as well add: e.g. diarouga explaining that it takes 10 sec of time instead of 3 sec.

Wall tinghy is a unneeded waste of time. There are so many other operations in game where skill and knowledge are involved, than building a simple wall without losing some wood in process.

Right, so how is that an argument against there being one more operation?

No offense, but I think it's stupid. I can't think of one single RTS, where you need to know secret of Holy Grail in order to evade game stealing wood from you for building a simple wall.

If you want expensier walls, by all means make them with correct price tag so everyone knows what they are paying for. Or even better, briefly explain this "bug" in wall description so everyone knows they are paying more if walls are not built "properly".

This is more about information than anything else, information which should be provided to player as is, no shenanigans involved. If it is 5w, it's 5w period, no small letters in a contract.

[Garja]

Honestly the deleting pillar thing is almost irrelevant. I almost never delete those things and still win games.