[SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

[SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost (details are below)?

Yes i want!
24
56%
No i dont want!
19
44%
 
Total votes: 43

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Serbia Atomiswave
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by Atomiswave »

Garja wrote:
Mr_Bramboy wrote:Who cares? I'm still going to be deleting my pillars.


Actually it's rather the opposite I'm not deleting pillars to gain 20w when I have other things to do.
Like I never considered the pillar thing being any relevant except when emulating the wall style with jap, which btw is bad anyway.


With this fix you won't even have to think about it, because pickpocketer will be in jail :D
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Hungary Dsy
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by Dsy »

Actually you gain 25w back from your 20w spent wall.
With 1:5 ratio you gain back 5w from 20w spent wall.
And people build usually more than 4 straight wall long walls.
And if you double the price of walls you get 50w back from 40w spent wall.
With 1:5 its actually 10w back from 40w spent wall.
On 4 straight walls you can save 50w if you double the price of the walls. And thats something thats matter...

So if we are planning increase the price of the walls in the future its a helping tool for it. Without it players would be forced to use this glitch more frequently. And yes thats at the expense of micro and other things.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Tbh 10s to wall is huge, you probably can't do it since you want it to be removed but it takes a lot of training etc.
Your maths aren t relevant since you forgot that pilar walls are 1.5 larger than no pillar walls, so it is not 25% but less than 20%.
And tbh, when you build a wall, spending your apm for 20 or even 40w isn't worth compared to raiding, scouting, macroing etc.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by sdsanft »

Dsy wrote:Walls are strangly designed in the game. I mean there are 2 type of walls. Straight wall and pillars. You can build a whole wall from 105 wood but if you delete your pillars correctly it costs only 50wood and there wont be any holes in your wall. This delete strategie require knowledge, fast clicking skills and time to do.
I think this delete strategie is bleeding in more points:
1. Most of the players dont want to spend much more time to deploy a wall (compare to the normal walling), until that delete its own parts.
2. You unduly save half of your wood cost.
3. Making wall more expensive force players to using this strategy often which means pillars can totally disappear from the game. Will become an annoying thing: you have to delete pillars every time when build walls.
There is a solution to fix this issue by separate the straight wall and pillar costs. I think (1:10) ratio would be fine to go with first. It means if you have to pay 20wood for a straight wall then the pillar costs only 2wood.
After this change you can still delete pillars but it wont be a necessary thing to do. For example: If you build 10 straight walls from 200 wood there are 11 pillars next to them so it basicly means you can save only 22 wood by deleting pillars. But destroy pillars risky cause if you dont deplay your walls well there will be holes in it. So its basicly more time to deploy walls fine if you want use this trick. All this means its still allowed to do, but there wont be any advantage to do it (calculate with time lose).
Why this solution is good?
1. It makes walling easy to use for everyone (you arent forced to delete some of your wall parts).
2. You cant unduly save your wall cost. This thing even help make wall cost mobile which is a necessary for game balance.

Thanks for iCourt who checked out its a doable change!

Or you could just make a wall with market and houses and not be a boring player.
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Hungary Dsy
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by Dsy »

I know 10s is huge and i really want it to be removed. You have to be a good player so you should understand pr30+ level there is no 10 sec time when you could focus only deleting wall pillars... There is always other things have to do. If your in age 3 already in a fortress based game you cant leave your army for more than 3 sec. - its 1 point why this change is useful
If spending apm for wood istn worth why lot of players do this? Some players showed it it worth even now with some playstyle. But the main point if you want increase the price of the walls then the delete benefit growing with it. It means if you double the price of walls you force 2 times more effectively the players to use this glitch. Now its not a big deal, but i think increasing wall price should be a goal to make this game more enjoyable.
Plus even if wouldnt be wall price increasment there is no reason for not implement this change into the game. You still lose less wood vs glitchers which is good overall.

Btw your criticism are totally bad. You dont give any reason why NOT implement this change into patch. There is no reason though just funny how are you saying "its not good" whithout any constructive point.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I also think that increasing the cost of walls is a good thing, because it is easily abusable, but then we should also increase pilars' cost.
The goal of the patch isn t to make the game easier, we could also nerf the herding or the microgestion's impact but it is not wanted.
I do understand that it is hard to do, but then you should spend like 10 min in a scenario and try to build perfect pillarless walls, unlike micro you can easily train and improve.
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Hungary Dsy
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by Dsy »

You dont understand the details then.
1:5 ratio means
1w pillar 5w straight wall
2w pillar 10w straight wall
3w pillar 15w straight wall
4w pillar 20w straight wall
5w pillar 25w straight wall
So pillar cost also increasing with straight walls.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by zoom »

I think this would be good, for two main reasons:

1. It's a bug.
2. It's fucking stupid.

There are certainly arguments against it though...
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Nah, you missed my point, your segment needs to be small when you delete your pillars, otherwise there are holes in it.
So a pillarless wall with 5 segments will be like 3 segments with pillars.
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Hungary Dsy
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by Dsy »

Its only 4. But just doesnt matter. It helps force players more to not use glitch. Why is it a problem?
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by Papist »

This just sounds like a freebie for people who are too lazy to delete pillars. Seriously, it's not that hard.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by _H2O »

I don't think it's worth the effort for me to learn stubless. Pretty sure it's not as good as people are freaking out about it being
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by Jaeger »

_H2O wrote:I don't think it's worth the effort for me to learn stubless. Pretty sure it's not as good as people are freaking out about it being

You always make 1 more pillar than wall segments so if they both cost the same then (granted you have to make more segments to cover the same distance) 35%+ of the cost is still probably pillars. Also, a pillar being destroyed will make a bigger hole in your wall.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by _NiceKING_ »

Exactly! When enemy destroys a pillar, two pieces of walls that the pillar connected go down.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by Aizamk »

Master sappers don't need pillars to destroy multiple wall pieces >:)
oranges.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by _H2O »

None of which changes much talking under 100 wood. And a hole is a hole when it's the size of one long segment :D
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by forgrin »

This is the change that'd make pillars free and double the cost of segments iirc?
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by iCourt »

No. It's suggesting making pillars cost something like 2 wood and segments 5 wood, or something similar to that extent. Close to a 1:5 ratio or 2:5 ratio etc.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by hunter »

let me explain it easily for who didn't understood what he meant, He is saying about changing the cost of wall not whole wall just the pillars. So when you make 1 segment of wall it has 2 pillars and 1 long segment, which costs 15 wood. If we make this change what will happen pillars will be 1 wood and segment would remain 5 wood so the total cost comes down to 7 wood. Imagine a 20 segment 21 pillars wall which costs 205 wood for current value and 121 wood by this method Now why to do this? We know that if we delete pillars we will be saving ~50%wood and vill time but it requires decent speed skill so you dont have holes and time, by this change saving 21 more wood when you are already saving 84 might not be worth in sup. plus given the nerf for walls this makes sense to me so yes
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by forgrin »

iCourt wrote:No. It's suggesting making pillars cost something like 2 wood and segments 5 wood, or something similar to that extent. Close to a 1:5 ratio or 2:5 ratio etc.

Ah OK.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by g06092 »

I don't get it. Walls have such big issues being too cheap and too fast to build and you argue for the stupid segments? And if you make the stupid segments so cheap you can block strategic positions for Agra fort or even all aggressive positions on maps like Tibet. Leave pillars' as they are. Then either make wall segments 20 wood or 10 wood and build 2-3 times slower. There you go - solve all problems and pillars cost is still small in comparison to the wall segments.
If it was up to me I would actually remove the walls from the game. We all know how AoC was totally ruined with walls blocking any aggression. All versatility was gone. In TAD the issue is not as big but there are more versatile civs from ones with max unit range of 14 like Russians to others with great archers like yumis and longbowmen while the latter civs are also booming civs. With those booming civs you only need several raid-free minutes to be able to push out and win. Walls kill rush and IMO that's the most interesting part of the game as it involves more micro and skills.
Also having no walls favors better building placements. The list of arguments can go forever like the ridiculous HP after the walls upgrade. Such things have no place in a intense strategic game which requires not only strategic thinking but mostly good skills in micro. After all the strategies are limited, but the skills can always be improved and that what keeps the game interesting.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by IP Man »

g06092 wrote:I don't get it. Walls have such big issues being too cheap and too fast to build and you argue for the stupid segments? And if you make the stupid segments so cheap you can block strategic positions for Agra fort or even all aggressive positions on maps like Tibet. Leave pillars' as they are. Then either make wall segments 20 wood or 10 wood and build 2-3 times slower. There you go - solve all problems and pillars cost is still small in comparison to the wall segments.
If it was up to me I would actually remove the walls from the game. We all know how AoC was totally ruined with walls blocking any aggression. All versatility was gone. In TAD the issue is not as big but there are more versatile civs from ones with max unit range of 14 like Russians to others with great archers like yumis and longbowmen while the latter civs are also booming civs. With those booming civs you only need several raid-free minutes to be able to push out and win. Walls kill rush and IMO that's the most interesting part of the game as it involves more micro and skills.
Also having no walls favors better building placements. The list of arguments can go forever like the ridiculous HP after the walls upgrade. Such things have no place in a intense strategic game which requires not only strategic thinking but mostly good skills in micro. After all the strategies are limited, but the skills can always be improved and that what keeps the game interesting.

If the rush wasnt too strong nobody would be making walls.
Look at nilla, why nobody makes walls when almost all civs want to rush?
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Because on nilla you have no food lol so you can t wall your food haha.
Anyway, I m fine with walls being more expansive, but then connectors should be as well.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by momuuu »

I think the delete stuff trick is kinda stupid/cheesy. Just make normal walls like they were supposed to be :p
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by forgrin »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Because on nilla you have no food lol so you can t wall your food haha.
Anyway, I m fine with walls being more expansive, but then connectors should be as well.

The idea behind pillars being cheaper is so kynesie-walling doesn't give you as much of an advantage. No reason that walls should require crazy levels of APM or macros to use properly.
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