[SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

[SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost (details are below)?

Yes i want!
24
56%
No i dont want!
19
44%
 
Total votes: 43

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Serbia Atomiswave
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by Atomiswave »

Mass has spoken, fix the walls pls.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

forgrin wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Because on nilla you have no food lol so you can t wall your food haha.
Anyway, I m fine with walls being more expansive, but then connectors should be as well.

The idea behind pillars being cheaper is so kynesie-walling doesn't give you as much of an advantage. No reason that walls should require crazy levels of APM or macros to use properly.

Why not? Kynesie's trick should give you an advantage and what's the problem with this requiring a good apm?
People complain that walling the wall map with pillarless walls and bows behind is too easy and then they say that walling is too hard lol.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Atomiswave wrote:Mass has spoken, fix the walls pls.

13-11?
Even if it was 15-5 it wouldn't happen xD.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by forgrin »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
forgrin wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Because on nilla you have no food lol so you can t wall your food haha.
Anyway, I m fine with walls being more expansive, but then connectors should be as well.

The idea behind pillars being cheaper is so kynesie-walling doesn't give you as much of an advantage. No reason that walls should require crazy levels of APM or macros to use properly.

Why not? Kynesie's trick should give you an advantage and what's the problem with this requiring a good apm?
People complain that walling the wall map with pillarless walls and bows behind is too easy and then they say that walling is too hard lol.


I agree it does make walling more skill-based, but from a game design perspective you gotta admit it's a pretty stupid mechanic.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by zoom »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:Mass has spoken, fix the walls pls.

13-11?
Even if it was 15-5 it wouldn't happen xD.

That's how the EP political process works. If you want something done, vote against it!
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by Papist »

g06092 raised a good point, one I had not thought of. If you make pillars free, there is no reason not to spam them all over the map for LOS and to obstruct forward building placements.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by momuuu »

I wonder how long it would take kynesie to create a mod that really doesnt cause any lag to automatically create walls with only pillars if pillars were to be free.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by Papist »

Jerom wrote:I wonder how long it would take kynesie to create a mod that really doesnt cause any lag to automatically create walls with only pillars if pillars were to be free.


Have you seen AOC pillar walls? It's not a bad idea to make pillar walls, free or not. It's too bad AoE3 doesn't have a grid system.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by momuuu »

Aoe2 walls are pretty cool for those slick plays yeah.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by forgrin »

Papist wrote:
Jerom wrote:I wonder how long it would take kynesie to create a mod that really doesnt cause any lag to automatically create walls with only pillars if pillars were to be free.


Have you seen AOC pillar walls? It's not a bad idea to make pillar walls, free or not. It's too bad AoE3 doesn't have a grid system.

Pretty sure you could do it just by spamming shift-click beside the other pillars after creating the first one.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by Dsy »

There is no mention to make pillars priceless. Please dont go off or read the post before you act!
And H2O and Garja! You win 100w with 5w wall price. But if you double the wall price you double the effectivity of the deleting, means you will win 200w.
So:
Now you can build wall from 200w pillarless 100w.
Double priced walls from 400w cost 200w.

Plus isnt it worth to fix 200wood different but worth to mention jans got 225hp instead of 235?
11 civ can build walls. Walls are too cost effective. 1500 hp walls doesnt work well. Increase wall price is basicly necessary in this game. I would liked to change back their hp to 3k aswell.
So 5 wood wall = 2w pillar 10w straight wall. Its with 1,5k hp.
Double the price 4w pillar, 20w straigth wall. Increase their health back to 3k hp.

So all its do build 5 big wall long wall.
With change: It will cost 100w pillarless 124w with pillar. Its on 3k hp.
Without change: Now you build 25w pillarless 55w with pillar. Its on 1,5k hp.

Can you see the difference now?
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by Dsy »

Yeah and this huge price difference is basicly from 12% price increasment of walls compare to EP walls. (calculated with 1,5k hp costs 5w then 3k hp cost 10w)
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India drsingh
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by drsingh »

Players with good apm who use this delete pillars tactic mostly will play against other players( good apm) who can manage this in same way.
and players like me who are lazy and find it too much to do, play against similar skilled ppl. so i dont see this as any problem in competitive games.

The thing the patch could do should be related to what direction they want the game to progress. If they want to support the turtle style of play, against the more prevalent boom or rush.

Personally i feel it was a glitch that got accepted in common play instead of being eradicated. what would happen if we make it so that deleting the pillar will delete the two adjoining wall segments too. So u cant have a cheap plane wall like they are making right now. It doesnt seem logical that long wall segments are standing by themselves without the pillars, and this certainly wasnt the way walls were originally intended to be used.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by AOEisLOVE_AOEisLIFE »

Atomiswave wrote:Mass has spoken, fix the walls pls.

mass = 29 ppl
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by momuuu »

Id like to either see pillars reduced in cost or see an auto delete pillars mode be banned through ep.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by forgrin »

You can achieve a pretty decent cheap wall by just using default hotkeys. The macro isn't really necessary I think except for players like Kynesie who rely on near-instant walling since they're constantly re walling when pressured.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by pecelot »

It's pretty clear, isn't it? You commit to building a more ,,advanced" wall, you sacrifise your APM in order to save resources. I don't see it being banned anyhow, let's just leave it like it is now.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Jerom wrote:Id like to either see pillars reduced in cost or see an auto delete pillars mode be banned through ep.

You can't, it's not a mode, just a macro. As I said, you save 3-4 actions, it's not a big deal.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by zoom »

I believe it's a UI modification, isn't it? In which case it's not allowed in tournaments.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

zoom wrote:I believe it's a UI modification, isn't it? In which case it's not allowed in tournaments.

No. It used to be a hotkey modification (like agra hotkey), but since it's controversial he changed it to a mouse macro for tourneys.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by zoom »

No matter. It could still be forbidden, if deemed desirable.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

From what I understand it's binding the 'delete' action to the 'select all of a certain type if pillar' action. Which is technically cheating but who cares?
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by pecelot »

you can still do that in three legit clicks - select the wall pillar, select all units of that type hotkey, confirm the removal, which is easy - placing proper wall segments (so that there are no holes and such) is much more of a challenge and requires more attention than just deleting all the pillars.
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Re: [SUP] Do you want to separate straight walls and pillars cost?

Post by EAGLEMUT »

_NiceKING_ wrote:Exactly! When enemy destroys a pillar, two pieces of walls that the pillar connected go down.


For this reason alone I will always attempt to find some spare APM to delete all pillars, even if they cost 0 wood. The way walls currently work, your opponent can pretty easily tear down your whole wall just by spreading damage to the next segment (and the next, and the next..), which is at least somewhat prevented by building walls carefully and deleting those pesky pillars.
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