what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Port mid tier in team games?
They re tier 1 lol, as good as jap if not better.
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by Hazza54321 »

lol ports are op in team games
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by deleted_user »

i mean they mid tier 1v1 not team, was written by mistake.
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by r4go »

Porto like jap is op ofc, but you have one choice. Rush them
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by enjoy2play »

why do u still try get 1v1 and team balanced? its not possible, and in last 8 weeks i saw 2 players play 1v1 on EP, thats garja and kaiserklein.

so maybe turn focus now on teamgames :)
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by r4go »

enjoy2play wrote:why do u still try get 1v1 and team balanced? its not possible, and in last 8 weeks i saw 2 players play 1v1 on EP, thats garja and kaiserklein.

so maybe turn focus now on teamgames :)

This is a great idea, fp for 1-1 was a fail. Let do it fair for teams, and maybe it will be more played and also more belanced
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by zoom »

I think Portuguese are even more overrated than Dutch.

Also, how the fuck was EP a failure for 1vs1? Do you mean to say it's not used as much as you expected?
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by zoom »

enjoy2play wrote:why do u still try get 1v1 and team balanced? its not possible, and in last 8 weeks i saw 2 players play 1v1 on EP, thats garja and kaiserklein.

so maybe turn focus now on teamgames :)

It's absolutely possible. EP has just thus far been doing a poor job at team balance.
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by Atomiswave »

I can't understand all the fuss about dutch? They will be fixed, as ep team announced.

"Currently we are looking at increasing bank build XP bounty, a small buff to fortress age unit shipments and decreasing bank limit from 6 to 5. The discovery age "Bank of Rotterdam" and "Bank of Amsterdam" shipments will be restored to give +1 bank limit."

In case of Ports, I think they need small cassas and/or organs buff.
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by r4go »

zoom wrote:I think Portuguese are even more overrated than Dutch.

Also, how the fuck was EP a failure for 1vs1? Do you mean to say it's not used as much as you expected?

Yes, this is what i mean :D
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by Darwin_ »

Ports just need a slight increase to vill cost (85 or 90 food vills seem balanced), and a buff to crate start. I think a not getting a tc wagon when they age to IV is good. They are not lame at all before 12 minutes, and even after that they are only a little bit better than brits (nerf to Genitaltours will help keep them in check). Dutch is OP for sure, I think that Goodspeed's changes will nullify their OPness a little bit. I think that I would just do 4 banks, remove bank of rotterdam, and make Bank of Amsterdam +2 banks.
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by Jaeger »

Darwin_ wrote:Ports just need a slight increase to vill cost (85 or 90 food vills seem balanced), and a buff to crate start. I think a not getting a tc wagon when they age to IV is good. They are not lame at all before 12 minutes, and even after that they are only a little bit better than brits (nerf to Genitaltours will help keep them in check). Dutch is OP for sure, I think that Goodspeed's changes will nullify their OPness a little bit. I think that I would just do 4 banks, remove bank of rotterdam, and make Bank of Amsterdam +2 banks.

I really like your last suggestion, otherwise the cards are just so bad
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by momuuu »

ovi12 wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:Ports just need a slight increase to vill cost (85 or 90 food vills seem balanced), and a buff to crate start. I think a not getting a tc wagon when they age to IV is good. They are not lame at all before 12 minutes, and even after that they are only a little bit better than brits (nerf to Genitaltours will help keep them in check). Dutch is OP for sure, I think that Goodspeed's changes will nullify their OPness a little bit. I think that I would just do 4 banks, remove bank of rotterdam, and make Bank of Amsterdam +2 banks.

I really like your last suggestion, otherwise the cards are just so bad

RE bank of rotterdam/amsterdam are probably not even worth shipping over sth like a mill card to be entirely honest. Which means RE dutch has like a 60-70 vill lategame eco or sth. Its quite sad and I think dutch might actually be pretty weak on RE coz you just autolose in lategame.

Its like inverse france but gayer.
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by musketjr »

Rikikipu wrote:
I think you don't understand the philosophy of the current EP patch here. Again, this patch isn't here for uniformize all civs like the previous FP patchs. 5 vills card is really standard, whereas dutch has been designed for having eco in banks.


This thING about not standardising civs is repeated like a mantra. And used to justify changing or not chabeing anything. The reason Dutch has these changes is because Goodspeed uses psychedelics and is also the only person who had a strong view on Dutch as well as any say (ie Ryan didn't have strong view)

Example of how the mantra is applied arbitrarily. German is designed for heavy merc use. Only civ with merchant boosting cards and palatine houses (merc are pop heavy). But the mantra wasn't invoked for this.

Spain has archaic and many age 2 cards. But the mantra wasn't used to make their age two better.

My point is think critically and remain autonomous!
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by iNcog »

I suppose that the mantra would be to keep their mainstream options viable / competitive, instead of the niche options, I guess.

I also believe that "no change instead of possibly good change but we aren't sure" is also the philosophy. In other words, playing it safe. Which isn't such a bad idea, at least for the first iterations;
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20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by Rikikipu »

musketjr wrote:
Rikikipu wrote:
I think you don't understand the philosophy of the current EP patch here. Again, this patch isn't here for uniformize all civs like the previous FP patchs. 5 vills card is really standard, whereas dutch has been designed for having eco in banks.


This thING about not standardising civs is repeated like a mantra. And used to justify changing or not chabeing anything. The reason Dutch has these changes is because Goodspeed uses psychedelics and is also the only person who had a strong view on Dutch as well as any say (ie Ryan didn't have strong view)

Example of how the mantra is applied arbitrarily. German is designed for heavy merc use. Only civ with merchant boosting cards and palatine houses (merc are pop heavy). But the mantra wasn't invoked for this.

Spain has archaic and many age 2 cards. But the mantra wasn't used to make their age two better.

My point is think critically and remain autonomous!


Don't forget that A implies B doesn't automatically means that B implies A. So, doing a change that standardizes the civ is bad doesn't mean that a change that keeps civ designed is automatically good.
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by forgrin »

iNcog wrote:I suppose that the mantra would be to keep their mainstream options viable / competitive, instead of the niche options, I guess.

I also believe that "no change instead of possibly good change but we aren't sure" is also the philosophy. In other words, playing it safe. Which isn't such a bad idea, at least for the first iterations;


The problem I've always seen with making the mainstream "strats" etc competitive is that in some instances it doesn't really reflect the civ and ends up standardising them. See Ports for an example; without a doubt, their biggest powerspike is with an FI, and on RE at least (even with good hunts) their fortress, at least early and mid, are quite average. The same can really be said of their EP performance too, however at the moment their semi-FF is just really strong.

Therefore I think if the patch team is really against standardising, then the Port FI should be improved, or their early game defensive options should be buffed etc (nerfing walls is an issue for Ports for this reason). IMO it seems the initial design behind Ports was a ageup-based civ with strong water and defensive play; if we keep them as a strong water pick and just allow their FI to be a little stronger (85f vills would be fine for this IMO, plus maybe a RI attack card in age 2 or 3) then they can be more of a niche pick on land, which is fine.

Of course this all works better after water is balanced.
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by pecelot »

forgrin wrote:(85f vills would be fine for this IMO, plus maybe a RI attack card in age 2 or 3)

I agree with that particular suggestion.
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by deleted_user »

my suggestion is, keep porto vill cost in 100food, but give porto villagers a bit handicap to gather food. it's simple as dutch, where dutch villagers gathering gold a bit faster, and since porto needs more food, porto vills could gather food a bit faster, @Goodspeed
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by Jaeger »

musketjr wrote:
Rikikipu wrote:
I think you don't understand the philosophy of the current EP patch here. Again, this patch isn't here for uniformize all civs like the previous FP patchs. 5 vills card is really standard, whereas dutch has been designed for having eco in banks.


This thING about not standardising civs is repeated like a mantra. And used to justify changing or not chabeing anything. The reason Dutch has these changes is because Goodspeed uses psychedelics and is also the only person who had a strong view on Dutch as well as any say (ie Ryan didn't have strong view)

Example of how the mantra is applied arbitrarily. German is designed for heavy merc use. Only civ with merchant boosting cards and palatine houses (merc are pop heavy). But the mantra wasn't invoked for this.

Spain has archaic and many age 2 cards. But the mantra wasn't used to make their age two better.

My point is think critically and remain autonomous!


When they say they want to maintain civ uniqueness, it doesn't mean they want to make every civ like it's described in the little booklet that comes with the AOE CD :P, "maintain" just means to mostly keep the current meta. As fun as it would be to do large overhauls of some civs and design them around mercs, etc., I think the core belief is that changing things too much would lead to less people using the patch
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by forgrin »

deleted_user wrote:my suggestion is, keep porto vill cost in 100food, but give porto villagers a bit handicap to gather food. it's simple as dutch, where dutch villagers gathering gold a bit faster, and since porto needs more food, porto vills could gather food a bit faster, @Goodspeed

This was tried in the last fanpatch (they got free HD) but they just end up running out of hunt faster on most maps.
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by iNcog »

Portugueuse are fine. They are most likely balanced or even on the stronger side, since they can easily incoporate TPs into their builds. They also have strong water play. I really just think that Portuguese are not a weak civilization.
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

We're not saying that they are bad, they are too op in team.
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by iNcog »

They aren't better than Japan, Brits or French are they? What about China when they get out Old Han.
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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

They are much better than brit, at jap's level but jap is also insanely op in team.
The thing is that port are ok in age 2 (maybe not as good as brit but most of the time you just ff as port), very good in age 3, you can easily boom with 3 TC and op eco cards, and your goons are already very good.
Then when you reach age 4, you can boom from 4 TCs, and you have these crazy 20 range goons.

In 3v3 you want to boom and spam goons in age 3, portugese is the perfect civ to do it.

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