what went wrong? why the dutch and porto considered "LAME" now?

[iNcog]

Sure, though what about France though? Surely they can also do that, also I'm sure that in Age IV, France is also one of the best civ.

Either way, they're strong yes, but it's not necessarily a problem is it?

Even if it were, I'm sure that Genitours are going to get patched soon, so it should be OK.

[_H2O]

I think you don't understand the philosophy of the current EP patch here. Again, this patch isn't here for uniformize all civs like the previous FP patchs. 5 vills card is really standard, whereas dutch has been designed for having eco in banks.

This thING about not standardising civs is repeated like a mantra. And used to justify changing or not chabeing anything. The reason Dutch has these changes is because Goodspeed uses psychedelics and is also the only person who had a strong view on Dutch as well as any say (ie Ryan didn't have strong view)

Example of how the mantra is applied arbitrarily. German is designed for heavy merc use. Only civ with merchant boosting cards and palatine houses (merc are pop heavy). But the mantra wasn't invoked for this.

Spain has archaic and many age 2 cards. But the mantra wasn't used to make their age two better.

My point is think critically and remain autonomous!

You are misunderstanding the "mantra". It's not to follow the original design of the Civs or original intentions. It is to stay true to the game in its current form. Meaning don't buff the saloon units because the comanchero sucks. Don't give German muskets because that is a dynamic in this game. Basically don't rework anything. Just make small tweaks to the game to improve matchups without changing how they play out too much.

The reasons for this:

1. The game is pretty balanced right now.
2. The testing team is not large enough or engaged enough o test broad changes.
3. People like the game the way it is now for the most part. Many people don't want to relearn new things and making meta changes will always be controversial.

Therefore since mercs are kinda mediocre right now, they will stay mediocre as an example.

That's how those principles are meant to be used since the more changes that are made the more likely things are to get messed up.

[[Armag] diarouga]

France is very good but not as good as dutch/port in 3v3.

[_H2O]

my suggestion is, keep porto vill cost in 100food, but give porto villagers a bit handicap to gather food. it's simple as dutch, where dutch villagers gathering gold a bit faster, and since porto needs more food, porto vills could gather food a bit faster, @Goodspeed

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This was tried in the last fanpatch (they got free HD) but they just end up running out of hunt faster on most maps.

This is the problem. Another option is making food gathered by port Vils deplete the hunts slower. I just thought of this now. I think some patch did that with germs settler wagons on gold mines.

Ports problem is not good income it's running out of hunts too fast (they pay for every villager where other Civs are shipping villagers).

[zoom]

Show hidden quotes

my suggestion is, keep porto vill cost in 100food, but give porto villagers a bit handicap to gather food. it's simple as dutch, where dutch villagers gathering gold a bit faster, and since porto needs more food, porto vills could gather food a bit faster, @Goodspeed

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This was tried in the last fanpatch (they got free HD) but they just end up running out of hunt faster on most maps.

This is the problem. Another option is making food gathered by port Vils deplete the hunts slower. I just thought of this now. I think some patch did that with germs settler wagons on gold mines.

Ports problem is not good income it's running out of hunts too fast (they pay for every villager where other Civs are shipping villagers).

Amazink. Never change, Ryan. Please never change.

[Garja]

Funny fact now with 80f ports seem to run out of food later than let's say French for example.

[Rikikipu]

This is the problem. Another option is making food gathered by port Vils deplete the hunts slower. I just thought of this now. I think some patch did that with germs settler wagons on gold mines.
Ports problem is not good income it's running out of hunts too fast (they pay for every villager where other Civs are shipping villagers).

That's the also the current not really known case of indian settlers for trees. They can shop 450w from a 300w tree.

[IP Man]

my suggestion is, keep porto vill cost in 100food, but give porto villagers a bit handicap to gather food. it's simple as dutch, where dutch villagers gathering gold a bit faster, and since porto needs more food, porto vills could gather food a bit faster, @Goodspeed

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This was tried in the last fanpatch (they got free HD) but they just end up running out of hunt faster on most maps.

I am pretty sure 99% of the port players were just booming expecting they will start winning without making army. if you are eating the hunts faster, it means you are getting more food which means you should have won.
If you eat half of the hunts on the map and you havent won yet or you arent in a leading position, the problem is with you, not with the civ...

[pecelot]

The thing is you use all the food to constantly produce villagers from 2/3/4 TCs, whereas other civs get vill shipments for free in terms of resources. Standard play is to send 3v + 5v, French have 3.75 vill and 5 vill shipments, the Germans: 4 + 6.

[forgrin]

Show hidden quotes

my suggestion is, keep porto vill cost in 100food, but give porto villagers a bit handicap to gather food. it's simple as dutch, where dutch villagers gathering gold a bit faster, and since porto needs more food, porto vills could gather food a bit faster, @Goodspeed

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This was tried in the last fanpatch (they got free HD) but they just end up running out of hunt faster on most maps.

I am pretty sure 99% of the port players were just booming expecting they will start winning without making army. if you are eating the hunts faster, it means you are getting more food which means you should have won.
If you eat half of the hunts on the map and you havent won yet or you arent in a leading position, the problem is with you, not with the civ...

If you don't use your civ bonus (making more vills from more TCs), even if you do go aggressive early, you will naturally be behind other civs especially considering you lack villager shipments as Ports. Not using the extra TCs is not really an option as Ports.

[zoom]

This is the problem. Another option is making food gathered by port Vils deplete the hunts slower. I just thought of this now. I think some patch did that with germs settler wagons on gold mines.
Ports problem is not good income it's running out of hunts too fast (they pay for every villager where other Civs are shipping villagers).

That's the also the current not really known case of indian settlers for trees. They can shop 450w from a 300w tree.

Indians do not have Settlers.
[spoiler=spoiler][/spoiler]

[Papist]

my suggestion is, keep porto vill cost in 100food, but give porto villagers a bit handicap to gather food. it's simple as dutch, where dutch villagers gathering gold a bit faster, and since porto needs more food, porto vills could gather food a bit faster, @Goodspeed

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Making Port vils gobble up hunts even faster than they do already is not a buff.

[iNcog]

ports are fine wtf is wrong with you nutters

[Hazza54321]

ports are fine wtf is wrong with you nutters

it is in 1v1 however it is strong, in team they are one of the lamest civs, 80f vills isnt a good change imo just changes the game completely, also they can take map control with tcs.

[Papist]

ports are fine wtf is wrong with you nutters

it is in 1v1 however it is strong, in team they are one of the lamest civs, 80f vills isnt a good change imo just changes the game completely, also they can take map control with tcs.

They could always take the map with TCs (as they should, since they need a ton of resources if they want to have a chance at winning the game), and I don't see why 80f vils makes them lame. They are an eco civ - they should get good late game scaling.

Also remember that this is a 1v1 patch; the creators couldn't both balance 1v1 and account for every single problem their changes might create in another game mode.

[Hazza54321]

ports are fine wtf is wrong with you nutters

it is in 1v1 however it is strong, in team they are one of the lamest civs, 80f vills isnt a good change imo just changes the game completely, also they can take map control with tcs.

They could always take the map with TCs (as they should, since they need a ton of resources if they want to have a chance at winning the game), and I don't see why 80f vils makes them lame. They are an eco civ - they should get good late game scaling.

Also remember that this is a 1v1 patch; the creators couldn't both balance 1v1 and account for every single problem their changes might create in another game mode.

100f vills made port players cut some vills for military production, however on ep they can just have constant military and vill production from 3 tcs meaning if they survive til 15mins which happens pretty much everygame, then they run around the map with 20 range goons and perhaps the best eco. My tc point was stating a reason why theyre strong in team and how they can take map control so as cheap as 80f vills is unnecessary.

[Papist]

Again, this is a 1v1 patch. The devs obviously couldn't account for every issue in another game mode.

[Kaiserklein]

With a lot of civs you can force the port guy into placing his tcs in base though. And then he doesn't have map.

[iNcog]

With a lot of civs you can force the port guy into placing his tcs in base though. And then he doesn't have map.

Yeah, pretty much this.

Not to mention that, as far as I know, both Dragoons and Genitours are going to be nerfed in the next patch. So if Ports were a problem in team before, those fixes should help in that regard.

Of course, we first need the patch to actually be released. However, with ESO down all the time, releasing the patch would be suicide.

[Hazza54321]

By 1 range lol op change

[iNcog]

Is it one range?

There's still the Dragoon nerf itself and already some people were saying it was too much. Can't please 'em all! ^^

[IP Man]

Ports basically get bigger vill shipments than other civs, and still nobody realises that.
Instead of sending 5 vils, they can send 700food and make 7 vills instead of 5. They will also get build bounty for that.
In age 3, they can send 1000 food which is equal to 10 villagers.
If they make normal vills from 1 TC and army from barracks/stable while using the 700food and 1000 food shipment to make vills from other civs they can be top civ, but still nobody realises that because everybody is expecting that they will get free vills from the TC, and everybody keeps sending 700 coin while all 20/25 vills are on hunts and you expect that there will be enough hunts...

[britishmusketeer]

Ports basically get bigger vill shipments than other civs, and still nobody realises that.
Instead of sending 5 vils, they can send 700food and make 7 vills instead of 5. They will also get build bounty for that.
In age 3, they can send 1000 food which is equal to 10 villagers.
If they make normal vills from 1 TC and army from barracks/stable while using the 700food and 1000 food shipment to make vills from other civs they can be top civ, but still nobody realises that because everybody is expecting that they will get free vills from the TC, and everybody keeps sending 700 coin while all 20/25 vills are on hunts and you expect that there will be enough hunts...

Except that the vill shipment arrives instantly and doesn't require the tc(s) to be idle for 3 min.

[IP Man]

Ports basically get bigger vill shipments than other civs, and still nobody realises that.
Instead of sending 5 vils, they can send 700food and make 7 vills instead of 5. They will also get build bounty for that.
In age 3, they can send 1000 food which is equal to 10 villagers.
If they make normal vills from 1 TC and army from barracks/stable while using the 700food and 1000 food shipment to make vills from other civs they can be top civ, but still nobody realises that because everybody is expecting that they will get free vills from the TC, and everybody keeps sending 700 coin while all 20/25 vills are on hunts and you expect that there will be enough hunts...

Except that the vill shipment arrives instantly and doesn't require the tc(s) to be idle for 3 min.

Thats why they get more TCs and they get more vills, so they can catchup with gathering vs the 5 vills who have arrived instantly.
Also, lets not forget that half of the civs who have 5 vills shipment have a slow age up option in which they miss 4 vill batches.

[iNcog]

Ports basically get bigger vill shipments than other civs, and still nobody realises that.
Instead of sending 5 vils, they can send 700food and make 7 vills instead of 5. They will also get build bounty for that.
In age 3, they can send 1000 food which is equal to 10 villagers.
If they make normal vills from 1 TC and army from barracks/stable while using the 700food and 1000 food shipment to make vills from other civs they can be top civ, but still nobody realises that because everybody is expecting that they will get free vills from the TC, and everybody keeps sending 700 coin while all 20/25 vills are on hunts and you expect that there will be enough hunts...

You're not factoring in the time it takes for the TC to actually train those villagers, which destroys that argument. Not only that, but 700f and 1000f shipments are rather bad compared to other shipments, you don't want to be sending them, they aren't valuable.