map issues

[Garja]

Ok whatever, for like 1 year we had zero missing mine on hudson and zero missing hunt on arkansas but I guess we all imagined it

Exactly.

Lol just finished spawn testing new Arkansas. I wanna see you complain when it will be released.

[momuuu]

This is one of the cases where I feel inclined to say : why do you always have to behave as such a cock-sucker 24/7 ? Sorry, but that's how it is called. You always have to defend everything from esoc, ok you're a mod but come on. I don't know how garja fucked up the balance of his maps but he did lol, it's obvious, there weren't any missing mine or hunts before. Idk if it's because of team compatibility, or those shit treasures he added, or whatever else, but there is something. If you guys don't see it I can't help you

Btw this shit argument "if you know better" lol, really ? If we use that argument then you are never allowed to talk about balance right ? Whenever you argue with better players about civs balance, I'll just say "if you know it so much better, why are you captain" ? Or whatever your rank is

To be honest, its like a sergeant telling a top player he is wrong. I know pretty damned well I dont know the limitations and struggles of map making at all, and judging by what garja has posted in this thread there seem to be some things you might face. You dont seem to know anything about it, so I dont know what makes you feel like you know it better.

Its honestly kinda disrespectful imo. Free content, lots of effort put in and then you get some random flame from two angry people. Its not called dicksucking, its called showing some respect to people trying to improve the community with content rather than negativity.

[zoom]

The map team strategically said no purely fixed maps. Some are more fixed than others though. Manchuria mines are fixed for example. Colorado trade route is fixed. This game would get stale much faster if there was no randomization. Plus handling those differences is a skill in this game.

This.

Maps are not perfect but they are miles better in design than old maps. I don't think mAps is an area of improvement for ESOC tbh.

That may be true, but it would probably take Garja, Rikkikipu, or Durokan a few hours to fix the blaring mistakes in Arkansas, Klondike and Cascade.

What glaring mistakes? Please specify.

Of course. Anyway new kamchatka is different from old kamchatka and can't be fixed. You get 2 hunts? Deal with it.

You may be missing the point: It's fine (subject to opinion) that the amount of starting resources available to players varies between map spawns; it's not fine that it differs vastly between players within a spawn.

[zoom]

This is one of the cases where I feel inclined to say : why do you always have to behave as such a cock-sucker 24/7 ? Sorry, but that's how it is called. You always have to defend everything from esoc, ok you're a mod but come on. I don't know how garja fucked up the balance of his maps but he did lol, it's obvious, there weren't any missing mine or hunts before. Idk if it's because of team compatibility, or those shit treasures he added, or whatever else, but there is something. If you guys don't see it I can't help you

Btw this shit argument "if you know better" lol, really ? If we use that argument then you are never allowed to talk about balance right ? Whenever you argue with better players about civs balance, I'll just say "if you know it so much better, why are you captain" ? Or whatever your rank is

Well... Jerom has been called captain before alright!

[[Armag] diarouga]

@Jerom

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, tbh I'm not even sure garja knows better about his maps than us. I can't believe a guy who thinks that russia is tier 1, rams are op, and that I maphack every time I beat him..

Also as kaiser said, on the old version of kamchatka/arkansas, I've never had problems with the hunts/mines spawns, and now on these maps, in more than half of the games, you get an unfair map...

I just don't understand why you would change the maps people like, there is just no point.

[Garja]

You guys are just retarded.

[gibson]

Yea probably retarded or maybe they just hallucinated all those games where the maps had no issues...... Seems plausible. Never can tell with frenchies

[zoom]

@Jerom

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, tbh I'm not even sure garja knows better about his maps than us. I can't believe a guy who thinks that russia is tier 1, rams are op, and that I maphack every time I beat him..

Also as kaiser said, on the old version of kamchatka/arkansas, I've never had problems with the hunts/mines spawns, and now on these maps, in more than half of the games, you get an unfair map...

I just don't understand why you would change the maps people like, there is just no point.

Probably to make them compatible with team games.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea probably retarded or maybe they just hallucinated all those games where the maps had no issues...... Seems plausible. Never can tell with frenchies

Check the ASC maps. Tell me if you have bad spawns.
Then do the same with the new maps, and you'll see that in 50% of the spawns, one player has an advantage (though it is game breaking in only 20-25% of the spawns).

[Darwin_]

Maps are not perfect but they are miles better in design than old maps. I don't think mAps is an area of improvement for ESOC tbh.

That may be true, but it would probably take Garja, Rikkikipu, or Durokan a few hours to fix the blaring mistakes in Arkansas, Klondike and Cascade.

What glaring mistakes? Please specify.

Missing second and third hunt on Arkansas during team and occasionally during 1v1. Missing the plateau and mines on colorado during team. Cascade range can sometimes miss second and third hunts in team and 1v1 sometimes. Baja california hunt spawns can be a little inconsistent sometimes. Also klondike needs either a gold mine in base (which would make sense due to the klondike gold rush) or having a closer second mine, making the map balanced for team.

[[Armag] diarouga]

On arkansas you have between 1 and 4 hunts close to your base (only 1 almost never happens, though it has happened one or two times to me), that's insanely random.

Once I Cascade I got 0 hunts lol, that was crazy, my closest hunt was almost closer to my opponents' base.

Klondike doesn't really have bad spawns, the problem is just the design of the map, and we can't complain about this.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Here is an example of a game where I miss one hunt. It's "only" one, sometimes it can be two but tbh one lacking one hunt is huge. On top of that, his 5th hunt is closer than mine.

[zoom]

Tanks budys!

[britishmusketeer]

Yea probably retarded or maybe they just hallucinated all those games where the maps had no issues...... Seems plausible. Never can tell with frenchies

Check the ASC maps. Tell me if you have bad spawns.
Then do the same with the new maps, and you'll see that in 50% of the spawns, one player has an advantage (though it is game breaking in only 20-25% of the spawns).

You didn't get that he was being sarcastic?

[Kaiserklein]

To be honest, its like a sergeant telling a top player he is wrong. I know pretty damned well I dont know the limitations and struggles of map making at all, and judging by what garja has posted in this thread there seem to be some things you might face. You dont seem to know anything about it, so I dont know what makes you feel like you know it better.

Its honestly kinda disrespectful imo. Free content, lots of effort put in and then you get some random flame from two angry people. Its not called dicksucking, its called showing some respect to people trying to improve the community with content rather than negativity.

Well you know, I've been trying to respect garja for a really long time. I actually flamed him less than I do normally because I felt like he was getting unfairly flamed by a lot of people, while indeed bringing new maps to the community.
The problem is, at some point, he could be the king of the universe and I would still not respect him, because of how he behavs towards me (and other people). I mean, he keeps saying that I maphack (for example because I take a 80f as France, big deal), that I suck, "shut up I know better" (when I just won like 4 times in a row, ofc), "retards" now ITT, etc etc. And more or less the same goes towards diarouga. If you want to be respected you need to show basic respect to other people as well... Hey, I'm a sore loser as well, but I'm nowhere nearly as hardcore as this. I came to the conclusion that Garja doesn't really deserve respect, seeing how he disrespectful he himself is.

On top of that, I'd add we tried multiple times to ask nicely for map changes. The problem being, Garja is so full of himself that he doesn't give a shit about what we can ask or think. Basically he made the maps, so hey, you don't have anything to say about them. Just compare the way Riki reacts when people criticize his maps (as long as it is relevant remarks, he will take them into account, because feedback is always a good thing) and the way Garja reacts... Plus those maps are going to be used for tourneys for which people put money on the table. Those maps are indeed free content, and I'm grateful for that, but making maps for a full community also means responsibilities, right ? Or then, by this way of thinking, you could argue that the community doesn't have a word to say about the balance changes either, because hey it's free content. Same for the esoc forums, and whatever else. But no, it doesn't work that way, we need feedback (as long as it is courteous) from the community if we want things to work nicely. And everyone got that in the esoc team, except Garja apparently.

And finally, those mapscrews we are talking about are just blatant. I even remember spawning hudson with umeu when this version came out, and we found that goldmines were screwed. And with Mitoe, we saw that Arkansas hunts were screwed as well. And it hasn't really changed since. I don't believe anyone who play a lot on Arkansas or Hudson hasn't noticed those new screws.

[gibson]

Yea probably retarded or maybe they just hallucinated all those games where the maps had no issues...... Seems plausible. Never can tell with frenchies

Check the ASC maps. Tell me if you have bad spawns.
Then do the same with the new maps, and you'll see that in 50% of the spawns, one player has an advantage (though it is game breaking in only 20-25% of the spawns).

i was being sarcastic :)

[iNcog]

the problem with garja / flaming is that it's literally a never ending loop

until one party completely stops flaming 100%, then the bickering will continue. thing is you have garja on one side and then like 10 or so people on the other. in those 10 people, none of them are particularly BAD, but it's just that they rotate flaming. when 9 of those guys aren't flaming, the last one is. then it goes on

in the end, garja is getting flamed 100% of the time and the guys on the other end are only flaming 10%

so it's easy to look at the other guys and say "hey look i don't flame most of the time whereas garja is 100% flaming" then cry about how garja is flaming and has bad attitude, etc.

just chill, o_o

best thing to do is to stop being offended, it's not like it's a hard thing to do, just take the moral high ground and pretend that you're the better person

[Garja]

The starting hunt on Kamchatka ocasionally bugs. Just rehost. I said that already.
And I also said already that ASC maps were only obs. And they did have unperfect spawns.

[[Armag] diarouga]

the problem with garja / flaming is that it's literally a never ending loop

until one party completely stops flaming 100%, then the bickering will continue. thing is you have garja on one side and then like 10 or so people on the other. in those 10 people, none of them are particularly BAD, but it's just that they rotate flaming. when 9 of those guys aren't flaming, the last one is. then it goes on

in the end, garja is getting flamed 100% of the time and the guys on the other end are only flaming 10%

so it's easy to look at the other guys and say "hey look i don't flame most of the time whereas garja is 100% flaming" then cry about how garja is flaming and has bad attitude, etc.

just chill, o_o

best thing to do is to stop being offended, it's not like it's a hard thing to do, just take the moral high ground and pretend that you're the better person

Sometimes I just troll him but atm I couldn't be more serious.
Also I don't see where I flame him, I don't even go personal, I just complain about unfair maps.

[Garja]

I'm locking this anyway. There is another official thread with rules for reporting.