map issues

[momuuu]

I think Garja made the maps slightly random, and compatable for team games. And that caused potential for mapscrews, just like all random maps.

[Garja]

Exactly. Also maps always had a % of bad spawns, just people don't know what has been changed so they didn't even notice.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I think Garja made the maps slightly random, and compatable for team games. And that caused potential for mapscrews, just like all random maps.

Yes he made it random, and that's an issue imo.
You can't deny that getting 2 hunts instead of 4 is a big deal.
As brit you run out of food at 7:30 then (which means that your timing won't be strong enough to break your opponent), while you would still have some animals at 9:30 with normal hunts.

[momuuu]

Well then maybe you could ask him if he could reduce the random factor. Let me show you:

Hey Garja, I think it'd be better if it had 3-4 hunts instead of 2-4 hunts, so that I can know what build I need to do. What are your thoughts on that?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Well then maybe you could ask him if he could reduce the random factor. Let me show you:

Hey Garja, I think it'd be better if it had 3-4 hunts instead of 2-4 hunts, so that I can know what build I need to do. What are your thoughts on that?

I'm dickrouga, idk how to be nice.
Seriously, I've already asked him to change it this way.

[Atomiswave]

I perfectly understand your 1st point, you've spent a lot of time to make these maps, I know that.
My problem is your 2nd point, arkansas and kamchatka were perfect but you changed it to add more randomness to the game.

Exactly, and randomness factor can sometimes decide the match, which is bad, especially in tourneys.

[momuuu]

You either go for fixed map or add some degree of randomness. Can't really go for something inbetween imo.

[Atomiswave]

You either go for fixed map or add some degree of randomness. Can't really go for something inbetween imo.

How much is some in percentages?

[momuuu]

You either go for fixed map or add some degree of randomness. Can't really go for something inbetween imo.

How much is some in percentages?

well that can be argued about. I think it's possible to make a case that two hunts vs four might be too much of a difference.

[Atomiswave]

You either go for fixed map or add some degree of randomness. Can't really go for something inbetween imo.

How much is some in percentages?

well that can be argued about. I think it's possible to make a case that two hunts vs four might be too much of a difference.

Its undoubtedly big difference, clear disadvantage, its not a question of adaptability.

[Kaiserklein]

Well then maybe you could ask him if he could reduce the random factor. Let me show you:

Hey Garja, I think it'd be better if it had 3-4 hunts instead of 2-4 hunts, so that I can know what build I need to do. What are your thoughts on that?

We already asked it that way tons of time though. His answer is something like "then don't play and we're all happy"

[[Armag] diarouga]

I'm not fine with a random amount of hunts for both player, but that's just my opinion. However, having less hunts than your opponent is objectively unfair, and fixing that would be an improvement.

[momuuu]

So maybe the random number can be fixed for both players?

[[Armag] diarouga]

So maybe the random number can be fixed for both players?

It would be really nice.

[Garja]

There is not a number of hunts for each player. There is only a number of hunts for the map.

[pecelot]

Yesterday we obs'd a game on Arkansas where the hunts were bugged in such a way that the entire middle of the map was empty while 3 hunts gathered themselves at the bottom border of the map. Strange!

[_H2O]

Garja don't stir the pot with that. When map design was being discussed it's always intended to draw a line down the middle of the map and things should be even. Over 90% of the time on Garja maps both players have equal maps at a panel of 5 peoples judgement. No one gets 2 hunts vs 4 hunts due to intentional random number of hunts spawning. There are fixed numbers of hunts and mines their locations vary based on constraints.

[Garja]

Actually this is an interesting point.
Ideally resources should be split evenly between players. However going for a repartition like that (split map in 2 halves) would case players to have lot of hunts around their base and very few in the middle.
That was the case with the very first version of Manchuria for example. (And btw for the record Manchuria changed like 4-5 times atleast so there is no old vs new Manchuria really).
At the moment, on most maps (if not all) only the 2nd hunt and another extra hunt are supposed to be within the player base area. This is achieved by attaching the 2nd hunt directly to the TC and splitting the first 2 extra hunts between the players (and placing them close enough to each base). All other hunts fill the remaining part of the map, sometimes according to other specific rules (see Kamchatka middle part or Arkansas top part).
This is the best solution to have enough randomness (aka a different hunt disposition every time) but still atleast 80% of perfect spawns.

[Kaiserklein]

Well I hope in tourney people will be able to rehost when they have 2 less hunts on arkansas...

[momuuu]

Well I hope in tourney people will be able to rehost when they have 2 less hunts on arkansas...

I think tournaments almost always have a rehost option. I think we might be underestimating how hard it is to make a consistently balanced but unpredictable map.

[Kaiserklein]

Well I hope in tourney people will be able to rehost when they have 2 less hunts on arkansas...

I think tournaments almost always have a rehost option. I think we might be underestimating how hard it is to make a consistently balanced but unpredictable map.

They do when it's streamed etc, but what about the game you play in the earlier stages that no one will ever watch ?
Maybe it's hard to balance a map. But is it hard to keep a map when it's balanced ? Arkansas used to be really fair... Now it lacks hunts, sometimes mines, but O WAIT it's fine we got treasures with 10 outlaws now

[Garja]

All this "the map used to be fair" is complete bs. Literally no one has more insight than me about these maps and I can assure you that the success rate of spawns is at its highest now.
I'm also working on the map right now because it will be changed slightly for next version and I literally only had 1 bad spawn out of 20 (and it was still playable lol).

[Kaiserklein]

Ok whatever, for like 1 year we had zero missing mine on hudson and zero missing hunt on arkansas but I guess we all imagined it

[momuuu]

This is one of the cases where I feel inclined to say: if you know it so much better, why dont you do it yourself?

[Kaiserklein]

This is one of the cases where I feel inclined to say : why do you always have to behave as such a cock-sucker 24/7 ? Sorry, but that's how it is called. You always have to defend everything from esoc, ok you're a mod but come on. I don't know how garja fucked up the balance of his maps but he did lol, it's obvious, there weren't any missing mine or hunts before. Idk if it's because of team compatibility, or those shit treasures he added, or whatever else, but there is something. If you guys don't see it I can't help you

Btw this shit argument "if you know better" lol, really ? If we use that argument then you are never allowed to talk about balance right ? Whenever you argue with better players about civs balance, I'll just say "if you know it so much better, why are you captain" ? Or whatever your rank is