You have the bank wagon on tad which is a big buff, on nilla there isn't. Ofc it is the fact that they don't have musks. If they had musks in colo they would be easily one of the top civs, since they could just play colonial with great eco and ups on skirms.
Garja wrote:You have the bank wagon on tad which is a big buff, on nilla there isn't. Ofc it is the fact that they don't have musks. If they had musks in colo they would be easily one of the top civs.
Careful mytoe is site admin, he can ban you
Jerom wrote: Garja is a better player than most of us here
Jerom wrote:Please don't bump old threads, especially when all you have to say is "lol"
Just because they would be good with muskets (not even sure they would be) doesn't mean that's the problem with the civ. That's not the right way to look at it. Fact is, they don't have muskets, they've never had muskets, and they would not be the same civ with muskets. So the problem can't be that they don't have muskets.
The problem is that they cannot be played in colonial for too long. And that's due to no musks. And the other problem, perhaps less relevant, is that they get outscaled in late fortress because 50 vill cap and extra banks costing cards.
hunter wrote:then dont , play them in fortress;/ there is no official rule which states that you have to play every civ in colonial
Thing is they are supposed to lose in colo vs civs that have musks or anything that is better than pikes. But ye I'm for playing them in colo now that they have hunts and mines in tc range+shipments back to back due to bank xp.
They are obviously not a colonial civ, but that's not the problem with them :/
Whatever, I give up.
I don't understand how everyone ended up being okay with making a big change to a civ like Portugal by making their villagers 20% cheaper (which turned out to be a great change), but are opposed to so many other solid changes for other civs that clearly need changing.
Just launched nilla and I had a 300g start as dutch. Then launched tad and had a 500g start. So you see... Just check if you don't believe me. And the result of this is dutch having a 3:40 age up time with 15 vils (in fact yeah 3:35 doesn't work, it's 3:40). But again, I'm pretty sure this change would be good, because dutch would be 25 sec faster and would have +1 vil. This and xp from banks to 110 or 140. Tbh on tad you can age up with 14 vils almost idlelessly (= 3:40 age up) as dutch most of time. With +1 vil / -100g you have even less idle time (if any) and you now have a 15 vils age up, which means you can get your first bank in time and with xp have your shipment ready when you hit colonial. It's a great change
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Except that even an idleless 14v age up for Dutch actually kind of sucks, but yeah. Not sure about the Nilla thing, I don't see how you'd be aging faster when that vill barely compensates for the missing crate by the time you can age. Seems to me like people are just idling their TC.
Lately I have been comparing banks to stagecoach and thinking that banks should be cheaper. Overall dutch has the problem of being too slow of a starter considering how poor their colonial / base defense options are.
Somehow they need to have a little more potential to make it to fortress but not much more because early fort they are strong. Maybe 150 food 150 wood on a 3 bank ff would be enough to let them squeeze out fortress a little more often.
"Prestige is like a powerful magnet that warps even your beliefs about what you enjoy. If you want to make ambitious people waste their time on errands, bait the hook with prestige." - Paul Graham
You can go 2 tp stagecoach as Dutch instead of first bank, and ye the 14v idleless (or even with idle) helps a lot in that case because you're building stable from 700w. +1v -100g btw is -200g from your starting mine basically. Little drawback. And ye 3.40 is 14v on TAD so defo not the common option even on nilla (16 was the standard and some people were even going 17 lol).
Btw Port change was worst change the patch team made imo.
Mitoe wrote:So you're really that opposed to cheaper banks?
Imo we should really stop reading garja's opinion. I mean that's funny sometimes to learn that russia is tier 1 or that rams are fucking good but you can't take it seriously, he just wants to disagree with the commob sense... Cheaper banks is a great idea imo.
I mean he's PR40 for a reason, and he consistently does well in tournaments. I don't agree with him all the time but it's not like we should ignore him
The problem with dutch is that they only have weaknesses and one sttength (early to mid fortress) that isnt even a strength but just okay and can almost completely be mediated by stagecoach.
This seems to indicate to me that they are too weak overall, and thats why mitoe's change of +1 vill -100c (kaiser is severely exeggarating the increased speed this gives, which wouldnt even be a bad thing anyways) or zoi's suggestion of +100w seem almost necessary to me.
Garja wrote:You can go 2 tp stagecoach as Dutch instead of first bank, and ye the 14v idleless (or even with idle) helps a lot in that case because you're building stable from 700w. +1v -100g btw is -200g from your starting mine basically. Little drawback. And ye 3.40 is 14v on TAD so defo not the common option even on nilla (16 was the standard and some people were even going 17 lol).
Btw Port change was worst change the patch team made imo.
In terms of design, undeniably. In terms of effect, not at all.
Jerom wrote:The problem with dutch is that they only have weaknesses and one sttength (early to mid fortress) that isnt even a strength but just okay and can almost completely be mediated by stagecoach.
This seems to indicate to me that they are too weak overall, and thats why mitoe's change of +1 vill -100c (kaiser is severely exeggarating the increased speed this gives, which wouldnt even be a bad thing anyways) or zoi's suggestion of +100w seem almost necessary to me.
Would it be too much to reduce bank cost to 325/325 along with these changes?
Jerom wrote:The problem with dutch is that they only have weaknesses and one sttength (early to mid fortress) that isnt even a strength but just okay and can almost completely be mediated by stagecoach.
This seems to indicate to me that they are too weak overall, and thats why mitoe's change of +1 vill -100c (kaiser is severely exeggarating the increased speed this gives, which wouldnt even be a bad thing anyways) or zoi's suggestion of +100w seem almost necessary to me.
Would it be too much to reduce bank cost to 325/325 along with these changes?
The +1 vill change would be quite huge actually, so then its not needed to reduce bank cost I believe.
Sigh (cit.) let's go with the bank cost change (without any nerf to compensate) and let's just shuffle the civs, putting the weakest ones on top, instead of considering a long term balance perspective. Next tourney Dutch, Ports (and Spain according to the ATP supporters) will be the top civs, among with French and Germany which will still retain their power (to some lesser extent maybe). I guess we just want that afterall.
Port 80f change was obviously bad from design and then also bad balance wise. +1v -100g to dutch is frankly not needed at all, but we can try and see if it changes anything.
Kaiserklein 
Atomiswave 
