Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by _H2O »

Spain and port become competitive on ATP maps not broken. And 80 food Vils was a great change. It was a one liner change for port that made them viable by addressing a targeted issue and was not really poor design either.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by iNcog »

I just can't understand why anyone doesn't like that change. I like it myself, sure I don't play at a high level, but it makes sense to me, both in practice and on paper.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Garja »

_H2O wrote:Spain and port become competitive on ATP maps not broken. And 80 food Vils was a great change. It was a one liner change for port that made them viable by addressing a targeted issue and was not really poor design either.

Ye giving Ports cheaper vills than Russia while they have 3 tcs is clearly not poor design.
Also it is not poor balance that Ports can 100% emulate what French do with 200w start and people whine about French all the time.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Well they could if they had a native scout, cuirs, skirms and a falc shipment, currently there aren't as strong as France.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Mitoe »

Garja wrote:Sigh (cit.) let's go with the bank cost change (without any nerf to compensate) and let's just shuffle the civs, putting the weakest ones on top, instead of considering a long term balance perspective.
Next tourney Dutch, Ports (and Spain according to the ATP supporters) will be the top civs, among with French and Germany which will still retain their power (to some lesser extent maybe). I guess we just want that afterall.

This is part of the problem with our approach to balancing though. A lot of the time people don't seem to really want to look for the good, solid solutions and just want to make small changes that might seem ok on paper but don't actually do much at all to address the issue. That was part of the problem with the original Dutch changes, it didn't address any of their real weaknesses and just made them stronger at the point where they're already kind of strong.

For example:
People suggested standardizing Germany's villager shipments or removing uhlans from there shipments etc. when really this isn't likely to affect the civ to a large enough degree that it actually matters and just makes the civ ugly.

Or removing scout snare (flame incoming)


As for Port, I felt that the change was too much at the time that we made it, but having played against it more it seema like it solved a lot of their issues without breaking them.

Unfortunately they still have Genitours though which is definitely too strong.

Also to be fair Russian villagers still train more quickly.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Garja »

What are Dutch weaknesses for you? Please don't tell me the 1000w thing because makes no sense.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Mitoe »

I made a long post a couple pages back where I expressed my opinion on that.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Mitoe »

This one.

[spoiler]
Mitoe wrote:The problem with Dutch is that they're very limited in what they can do, and what they can do is not even that great.

Dutch can somewhat compete with other civs if they manage to hit fortress with 4 banks relatively safely. They're definitely not bad at this point in the game, but nothing crazy. Which is fine. It's not like we want them to be crazy strong, but the problem is that they have a very hard time reaching this point without losing the game or being at a severe disadvantage. At virtually no point in the first 5-6 minutes of the game do they have any flexibility in their build without getting some pretty insane treasure advantages in age 1 (which, granted, is doable with the envoy, and since most people are inefficient at scouting the map in age 1).

Their build is very tight: the costliness of banks is in stark contrast to other civs' booms, where you pay a smaller amount for a smaller gain, which gives you more room to invest your resources as you need them at that moment. At the same time, your shipments, which are by no means strong, are extremely important to both your military and your economy because you literally cannot invest effectively in either without investing a shipment in it.

This is both good and bad. On the one hand, it's one of the things that helps differentiate Dutch from other civs. They require very precise play, and this forces the player to commit to greedy play or not. There's not much room for anything inbetween. Sometimes even a small mistake can be heavily punished by their opponent. There's nothing inherently wrong with this design; however, when your civ is not even that strong when you do manage to get through all of these decisions unscathed, then Dutch becomes a very high-risk, low-reward civ to play.

Granted, EP 1.0 Dutch can build 6 banks. This may make them a somewhat medium-high reward civ in some cases, but it also takes longer to hit your power spike, and in general this just wasn't the best way to go about balancing the civ.

The extra xp is nice, compared to RE patch. It does help slightly, but it's not enough to fix their core issues. Frequently within the early game Dutch's 3nd or 4th shipments can't even be put to good use right away because your economy literally can't keep up with the demand. You'll start out in the Colonial age by sending a bank wagon, then follow up with that 700w shipment you've got sitting there from the extra xp, but it will just sit on the floor or in your inventory for a minute before you can really do anything with it because you decided to make a single batch of cavalry. Again, this is all a part of Dutch's heavily committal playstyle: boom or mass, very little inbetween.

But in order to compete with other civs at the moment they just need a small boost in the early game. Nothing big, but slightly cheaper banks or an extra villager or crate in age 1 would help greatly to put the civ back in a respectable place. 300f 300w banks is only going to amount to a total of 300 resources saved, most games (because 1 of the 4 banks will almost always come from the bank wagon card which you will likely send almost every game). You could argue that you'll net a few more resources because you "should" be able to build them sooner because they are cheaper, but since 600 resources is still quite expensive you're still going to be relying on your shipment timings in order to invest in banks.
[/spoiler]
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by iNcog »

This is part of the problem with our approach to balancing though. A lot of the time people don't seem to really want to look for the good, solid solutions and just want to make small changes that might seem ok on paper but don't actually do much at all to address the issue.


Ez fix:

Step 1. First and foremost debate ONLY on which civs require a buff or a nerf. Come to a consensus.
Step 2. Identify what is being problematic, where the issue lies. Come to a consensus. Play-test. How does it feel? [REPLAYS]
Step 3. Only when a consensus is found in steps 2 and 1 should possible changes be evaluated.
Step 4. Play-test. How do things feel now? [REPLAYS]

If the methodology was rigorous, people wouldn't be constantly nit-picking about what should be changed, what shouldn't be, disagreeing, etc. Right now there is basically no method, it's just posts and posts of discussion, which is good (discussion is always constructive), but there is a severe lack of structure which makes it very difficult to agree on issues and propose relevant changes, much less come up with actually good changes.

This isn't anyone's fault either, and it's absolutely normal that different players have different views on balance, perceived weaknesses and strengths and so on. Right now, there is a lot of discussion which shows that, with strong arguments on all sides.

At some point, you need to agree on certain hypotheses and act upon them. If said hypotheses turn out to be wrong, then it's OK, it means we know that that wasn't where the issue was.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by momuuu »

I don't know what happened during the testing of the XP changes to be honest. They are insignificant and the change feels like nothing. It's not really speeding up your build order; France and Germany's semi-FF gets so much stronger because they get an extra shipment in age 3 that smoothens out their build order by a ton. The build order for a French semi FF for example used to be 4 CDB 700g, and then people would age up with 6 skirms sometimes because you wouldn't have your shipment in age 3 ready yet without the TP. With a TP you make the colonial part smooth, adding a very crucial shipment (700w) and have your shipment ready right when you hit age 3.

The bank XP change doesnt do such a thing for Dutch at all; Your colonial age still has 3 shipments and your fortress age shipment has always been right on time. It speeds up things by an amount so small that it possibly doesn't even end up paying off more than one unit and when you are in fortress it just means you have like 5% of a shipment extra, at which point you are usually already dead if your opponent played correctly.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by iNcog »

Jerom, Dutch could be at TWC levels of power and you'd still say they were weak.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by momuuu »

iNcog wrote:Jerom, Dutch could be at TWC levels of power and you'd still say they were weak.

I've been thinking about that and, granted that I wasn't there back then, I am not even sure they would be insanely strong.

Btw, in this topic I made a match up list that was considered quite positive by all the people that responded to it. Mitoe's list, probably the best dutch player there is atm, is much more negative and rates Dutch much lower than I do. That being said, Mitoe thinks Germany isn't OP so he obviously doesn't understand a first thing about balance.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by britishmusketeer »

Jerom wrote:With a TP you make the colonial part smooth, adding a very crucial shipment (700w) and have your shipment ready right when you hit age 3.

With 4v 700g 700w you don't have a shipment as soon as you hit age 3 unless you got a 200w start and went for a early tp.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by iNcog »

Loved that last paragraph, @Jerom
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by momuuu »

britishmusketeer wrote:
Jerom wrote:With a TP you make the colonial part smooth, adding a very crucial shipment (700w) and have your shipment ready right when you hit age 3.

With 4v 700g 700w you don't have a shipment as soon as you hit age 3 unless you got a 200w start and went for a early tp.

As German or France? Either way it should be pretty close right?
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by iNcog »

German vs France is a tough match-up for both civs. It's certainly one which favors the better player.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Garja »

Mitoe wrote:The problem with Dutch is that they're very limited in what they can do, and what they can do is not even that great.

Dutch can somewhat compete with other civs if they manage to hit fortress with 4 banks relatively safely. They're definitely not bad at this point in the game, but nothing crazy. Which is fine. It's not like we want them to be crazy strong, but the problem is that they have a very hard time reaching this point without losing the game or being at a severe disadvantage. At virtually no point in the first 5-6 minutes of the game do they have any flexibility in their build without getting some pretty insane treasure advantages in age 1 (which, granted, is doable with the envoy, and since most people are inefficient at scouting the map in age 1).

Their build is very tight: the costliness of banks is in stark contrast to other civs' booms, where you pay a smaller amount for a smaller gain, which gives you more room to invest your resources as you need them at that moment. At the same time, your shipments, which are by no means strong, are extremely important to both your military and your economy because you literally cannot invest effectively in either without investing a shipment in it.

This is both good and bad. On the one hand, it's one of the things that helps differentiate Dutch from other civs. They require very precise play, and this forces the player to commit to greedy play or not. There's not much room for anything inbetween. Sometimes even a small mistake can be heavily punished by their opponent. There's nothing inherently wrong with this design; however, when your civ is not even that strong when you do manage to get through all of these decisions unscathed, then Dutch becomes a very high-risk, low-reward civ to play.

Granted, EP 1.0 Dutch can build 6 banks. This may make them a somewhat medium-high reward civ in some cases, but it also takes longer to hit your power spike, and in general this just wasn't the best way to go about balancing the civ.

The extra xp is nice, compared to RE patch. It does help slightly, but it's not enough to fix their core issues. Frequently within the early game Dutch's 3nd or 4th shipments can't even be put to good use right away because your economy literally can't keep up with the demand. You'll start out in the Colonial age by sending a bank wagon, then follow up with that 700w shipment you've got sitting there from the extra xp, but it will just sit on the floor or in your inventory for a minute before you can really do anything with it because you decided to make a single batch of cavalry. Again, this is all a part of Dutch's heavily committal playstyle: boom or mass, very little inbetween.

But in order to compete with other civs at the moment they just need a small boost in the early game. Nothing big, but slightly cheaper banks or an extra villager or crate in age 1 would help greatly to put the civ back in a respectable place. 300f 300w banks is only going to amount to a total of 300 resources saved, most games (because 1 of the 4 banks will almost always come from the bank wagon card which you will likely send almost every game). You could argue that you'll net a few more resources because you "should" be able to build them sooner because they are cheaper, but since 600 resources is still quite expensive you're still going to be relying on your shipment timings in order to invest in banks.


Alright, I can agree with most of this (which btw can be summarized as "being not a colonial civ", or "being weak in colonial"), however I disagree on some evaluations you make.
First of all, an unscratched 4 bank semi is very good, not just "not bad". It is the equivalent of a 3tp stagecoach semi FF if not more. If Dutch gets to such position they top 70% of civs (basically all except French, Germans, current Ports and probably Japan/Brits), since they also have pretty decent units in fortress. Sure some other civs also come closer to that power (India ffing perhaps or Iro with stagecoach ff) but at the same time, in contrast, Brits/Japan are not black and white MUs either on the EP for Dutch.
Also in mid fortress Dutch superiority fades away and they get outscaled by pretty much all civs except 2-3. That's the other weakness I mentioned earlier.

Anyway, that is for the ideal situation Dutch would like to be in.

Now, it is true that early on Dutch don't have much flexibility. You use 700 resources for each extra bank and that limits your unit production (need wood for houses and other res for units/vills).
However this is essentially because players always assume that you have to drop banks otherwise Dutch suck. Now, this consideration is likely very true on RE maps where you only get one mine and not really safe hunts, but on EP maps you can go as far as dropping zero banks until 700w (700w, bank wagon) and use all your resources for units, while just dropping market in transition (works better with 200w start ofc where you do early market in discovery).
This is good for example against civs like Otto that will clearly have less eco than Dutch but can win just by having more units / better combo at one point in the game.
Of course banks are good and you should still drop atleast 1-2 early on, but then you're not forced to drop any more than that for a big while. 2 banks is already like sending 5v 4v with another civ so if you lose because you have less units/ not flexibility (aka no 2nd military building spam) then that's a clear indication you should stop making banks and focus on units. I know this is kinda obvious for a Dutch player but sometimes it gets overlooked anyway.

Also now with better maps there are other options available to Dutch that are not very exploreed.
4v can actually find use as long as you're not totally confined to your TC area. And that should be the case if you make more units rather than an extra bank. 4v could be used as alternative to the 3rd bank when you want an eco boost but also want to save the 700 res for the moment.
Another option is the stagecoach build (especially with 14v age up) were you drop 2tps in transition and use 400w for stagecoach+ market. Then build military buildings out of 700w and bank wagon aftet that. 2 tps+bank is close to 3 banks and tps can be set on wood for pikes, so that you can actually think of playing prolonged colo.

In conclusion what I mean is that Dutch probably has some unexplored ways to refine their classic gameplay (they're not up yet to the current meta imo) so I don't think they deserve substantial boosts like cheaper banks or 1 extra vill. Between the 2, I would be more inclined to the +1v since it would be a reversal of a previous nerf and not a deliberate idea of the patch team like the cheapest banks (which again makes sense, but could easily be an overbuff).
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by britishmusketeer »

Jerom wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:
Jerom wrote:With a TP you make the colonial part smooth, adding a very crucial shipment (700w) and have your shipment ready right when you hit age 3.

With 4v 700g 700w you don't have a shipment as soon as you hit age 3 unless you got a 200w start and went for a early tp.

As German or France? Either way it should be pretty close right?

on gp it's close since the trade route gives you more xp than usual routes, but if you transition tp with french on a garja map you won't even be that close to getting your 1st fort shipment after 4v 700g 700w(assuming 5 huss). With german you wait even longer. Obviously if you get the tp from the start of the game you can send 3sw 700g 700w as ger and still have a shipment ready in fortress.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Lol idk why you guys don't believe me when I say you can age up 15 vils idless with -100g / +1 vil... When was the last time you played nilla ? Did you ever play nilla lol ? Because I played it not so long ago and I remember perfectly you can age up at 3:40 every single game, ok let's say 3:45 max. And I just launched a game on nilla, I had 200w 300g start (worst start if you want to age fast right ?) and still managed to age up idleless, without treasures. But whatever
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Mimsy for President »

Replace 4v by 5v and change the bank cost to 400f 300w. Best idea so far. You know why ? 'cuz it's mine.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by _DB_ »

300f 300w better
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Mimsy for President »

_DB_ wrote:300f 300w better
Yeah but nothing is free in life. 400f 300w is way better than 350f 350w.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by momuuu »

Kaiserklein wrote:Lol idk why you guys don't believe me when I say you can age up 15 vils idless with -100g / +1 vil... When was the last time you played nilla ? Did you ever play nilla lol ? Because I played it not so long ago and I remember perfectly you can age up at 3:40 every single game, ok let's say 3:45 max. And I just launched a game on nilla, I had 200w 300g start (worst start if you want to age fast right ?) and still managed to age up idleless, without treasures. But whatever

What I doubt is if you can get your shipment considerably faster with it.
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Jerom wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Lol idk why you guys don't believe me when I say you can age up 15 vils idless with -100g / +1 vil... When was the last time you played nilla ? Did you ever play nilla lol ? Because I played it not so long ago and I remember perfectly you can age up at 3:40 every single game, ok let's say 3:45 max. And I just launched a game on nilla, I had 200w 300g start (worst start if you want to age fast right ?) and still managed to age up idleless, without treasures. But whatever

What I doubt is if you can get your shipment considerably faster with it.

? You age up at 3:35 with a bank (=140 xp) so you have a shipment ready. I don't understand
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Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by momuuu »

Kaiserklein wrote:
Jerom wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Lol idk why you guys don't believe me when I say you can age up 15 vils idless with -100g / +1 vil... When was the last time you played nilla ? Did you ever play nilla lol ? Because I played it not so long ago and I remember perfectly you can age up at 3:40 every single game, ok let's say 3:45 max. And I just launched a game on nilla, I had 200w 300g start (worst start if you want to age fast right ?) and still managed to age up idleless, without treasures. But whatever

What I doubt is if you can get your shipment considerably faster with it.

? You age up at 3:35 with a bank (=140 xp) so you have a shipment ready. I don't understand

The bank part is the one I doubt.

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