Jerom wrote:Why I doubt you easily get a bank in time with an extra villager: Right now, with a 15 villager age up, which is easy and leaves you with about ~50-70 spare food, you struggle getting a bank out in time. If you decide to age one villager quicker at +1 villager, I think your age up is going to be pretty tight. It might be idleless, but it's not going to easily be idleless for sure. That almost has to mean it slightly delays your bank from going up, as you do not have the 50-70 spare food while clicking to age two. So maybe your bank is going to be up 15 seconds late or so. With a settler taking 25 seconds to train, that doesn't mean you are that fast (you are then 10 seconds faster). If it's going to be too strong, then Dutch has to be pretty strong already right now. It is not pretty strong right now, shipping 8 pikes first isn't even really a thing. So these 15 seconds (or even 25 seconds in the ideal scenario), can't make or break a game.
In both cases you have to build a bank with 15 vils while aging up, it's just the same. Even if you have 50 less food when you click age up, you will be able to have your bank more or less in time (50 food with 15 villagers will be gathered in 4 seconds, realistically it doesn't really matter). Also you have an envoy so you will almost always grab a few treasures, and that's more than enough to complete your build (as I said you can age up idleless without any treasure, so with treasures it's even easier to do it + get bank in time). So even if you have those 4, or let's say 5 seconds after you hit age 2 before your banks is up and you get xp from it, you're still 20 seconds faster than with today's dutchs.
If you think 20-25 seconds faster won't change a game, I don't know what to say. Maybe try to go play a bit against nilla dutch, idk. As dutch vs russia on nilla, you can burn your opponent's bh with 8 pikes first card if his fb is close enough to your base, and he won't be able to do anything about it. You will probs lose most of your pikes as you siege bh since he gets a batch + 5 cos out so it's not worth doing it, but the point was just to show how much it can change a game : would you even dream of 8 pikes as dutch fast enough to deny a russian fb lol ? I remember getting my tower burnt by 8 pikes when I used to tower rush as ger vs dutch. 8 pikes at 4:20, idk... Or, even, if you see the guy goes fb (for example as fre), you ship 3 huss first, and you have 3 huss at 4:30-40 at his fb, and he can't get his stuff built. If you don't think that changes the game, then you're hopeless. It basicaly means dutch can't get rushed, except by azzie/russ/otto, and even for those civs it's really risky to rush.
Of course here I'm talking about nilla meta, so you probs won't play it that way on ep maps with ep civs. But still it shows how 20-25 sec can change everything. It just means you will be able to do the exact same build as you do now, but 20ish seconds faster, so basically you won't get your first huss at 6 min but at the same time as france does : 5:40. And at 5:40, your extra vil has been worth 340 VS (200VS if you remove the 100g crate) which means you will be to have your huss batch even earlier because 200 VS is worth more than half a huss so you don't have to delay your batch too much. etc, etc, etc.
Jerom wrote:Other than that, 3 banks ~ 13.5 unupgrade vills. With 30% upgrade on food (say on 15 vills) and 10% on coin (say on 10 vills), which sounds reasonable for a civ shipping 5 vills and getting market upgrades, maybe even a bit low, you get +5 vills (for a shipment) and then 5.5 villagers for the market upgrades. You get 10.5 villagers out of nowhere as a civ without any eco bonusses but market upgrades and a 5 villager shipment. So as dutch you are 3 villagers ahead of someone. Given that producing villagers that cost coin over food takes about 1.5 villagers away from your eco (maybe more like 0.5 given that they have a gold gathering upgrade), you are left being 2 villagers ahead while spending 1400 resources (two banks, and a shipment worth a bank not taken into account) while this other player has spend 600 resources on his economy. And we're not even talking about stagecoach shit which is just sad.
You forget that dutch also get market upgrades for their vils though... At least Mitoe does and it seems to work
Garja wrote:I played Dutch on nilla extensively (had to do that for tourney practice if anything) and ye ofc 15v idleless is possible. The point is if it is any beneficial since 16v is already 4.10 age up and with one less vill your transition bank is going to be a bit more akward to place. But the point isn't even that first bank, it is more the snowball on other banks since you don't have a bank wagon on nilla.
Anyway I'm trying to age with 14v on TAD mostly to test the TP strats (and other bank builds) and it is possible but not perfectly smooth. It makes sense with a build like the stagecoach one.
Well maybe you played before Aizamk the great elifent shifted the meta with his revolutionary build. For my part when I played nilla back in 2013-2014 people always aged up with 15 vils as dutch, and good players didn't really have an idle time.