Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

[momuuu]

I think we should reduce the villager coin cost. Goodspeed will surely like that!

[zoom]

*Sigh*

This is why we shouldn't have even tried to balance the game in the first place. To sum up this thread:

Is Dutch bad? Yes.
Will they get better? No.

The only poster I see claiming the latter is you. You're being incredibly negative to the point of falsification. Dutch will most certainly get better, but like I pointed out before, simply giving them a Settler I fear will make them too powerful. With that said, I'd be fine with testing it, like I am fine with testing any suggestion in the realm of relative sanity.

[momuuu]

I'd join the prediction that they will remain basically unplayable in any tournament setting for at least the entire upcoming version, and possibly forever.

[Mitoe]

I did just admit that if it allows them to age 30 seconds faster every game it might be a bit much. +1v -100c would still be a good start.

I think the bank change may be a more effective way to address the problem, but either one would be fine I'm pretty sure.

[deleted_user0]

*Sigh*

This is why we shouldn't have even tried to balance the game in the first place. To sum up this thread:

Is Dutch bad? Yes.
Will they get better? No.

The only poster I see claiming the latter is you. You're being incredibly negative to the point of falsification. Dutch will most certainly get better, but like I pointed out before, simply giving them a Settler I fear will make them too powerful. With that said, I'd be fine with testing it, like I am fine with testing any suggestion in the realm of relative sanity.

that's not what falsification means Zoo... jebus, learn to science =_=

[zoom]

I did just admit that if it allows them to age 30 seconds faster every game it might be a bit much. +1v -100c would still be a good start.

I think the bank change may be a more effective way to address the problem, but either one would be fine I'm pretty sure.

It's not just about the aging time though, an extra Settler is simply so massive compared to extra crates. That could work though, however I'd rather make Banks 325f, 325w and standardize the bounties.

[Mitoe]

At 5 minutes it'll be ~120-140 resources more than you otherwise have with +1v -100c. I don't think it's as big as you make it out to be. Just like how 300f 300w banks isn't going to be as big as you make it out to be.

It just makes their build a bit smoother. That's the only purpose of these proposed changes.

[iNcog]

I think we should reduce the villager coin cost. Goodspeed will surely like that!

I like the 300/300 bank change more than the extra villager change, to be quite frank.

It sounds more unique, keeps closer to who the Dutch really are: money mongers.

[zoom]

My revised suggestion:

– Bank (base) build-limit increased from 4 to 5. Cost decreased from 350f, 350w to 300f, 300w (bounties standardized accordingly from 70xp to 120xp (build) and 140xp to 240xp (kill)).
– "4 Settlers" home-city shipment increased to 5 Settlers.
– "4 Hussars" home-city shipment increased to 5 Hussars.
– "Bank of Amsterdam" and "Bank of Rotterdam" home-city shipments both increased from +1 to +2 Bank build-limit.
– "Tulip Speculation" home-city shipment increased from 15% to 25%.
– "Coffee Trade" unique-church improvement now instead increases Bank build-limit by 1 and Settler movement speed & (all; including construction) work rates by 5%.

If you are opposed to change though, you could just go with the first line.

[Mitoe]

I don't dislike those changes, but I think the bank limit should be fine at 4. I don't mind your other suggestions much, but I'm not sure they're necessary, especially the coffee trade one. Dutch isn't supposed to have a monster economy lategame (I don't think they would with these changes but yeah). Their lategame eco probably needs slight improvement, but they're supposed to have a slightly weaker economy with additional military population space to compensate. They get their value out of their military advantage rather than their economy.

[momuuu]

I dont know why you'd buff the 4 vill shipment, that kinda seems to against the design of the civ right.

[Mitoe]

Bank build bounty should actually not be 140xp in this case (though I wouldn't mind) but 120xp.

From RE Patch:
- Bank cost reduced to 300f 300w
- Bank Build Bounty: 70xp > 120xp | Kill Bounty: 140xp > 240xp
- 4 Huss > 5 Huss (Optional?)
- [Some kind of minor adjustments to age 1 cards, Coffee Trade, AND/OR Tulip Speculation but not all 3]

And the civ should be in a pretty good place I think.

I'm pretty sure the bank limit should remain at 4. Getting more than that should require some kind of other not-so-easy investment like a shipment.

[zoom]

I don't dislike those changes, but I think the bank limit should be fine at 4. I don't mind your other suggestions much, but I'm not sure they're necessary, especially the coffee trade one. Dutch isn't supposed to have a monster economy lategame (I don't think they would with these changes but yeah). Their lategame eco probably needs slight improvement, but they're supposed to have a slightly weaker economy with additional military population space to compensate. They get their value out of their military advantage rather than their economy.

Don't stifle my creativity!

[Mitoe]

Don't get me wrong I actually like your suggestions but not all of them in the same patch

[zoom]

I dont know why you'd buff the 4 vill shipment, that kinda seems to against the design of the civ right.

To me it's either that or remove it. The same goes for Ottomans and Sioux, by the way.

[Mitoe]

I mean sure, you could buff that card, but I'm not sure it would actually do anything. Don't remove it though it's important to my new build D:

[zoom]

Removal of features should be a last resort, in my opinion.

[Atomiswave]

My revised suggestion:

– Bank (base) build-limit increased from 4 to 5. Cost decreased from 350f, 350w to 300f, 300w (bounties standardized accordingly from 70xp to 120xp (build) and 140xp to 240xp (kill)).
– "4 Settlers" home-city shipment increased to 5 Settlers.
– "4 Hussars" home-city shipment increased to 5 Hussars.
– "Bank of Amsterdam" and "Bank of Rotterdam" home-city shipments both increased from +1 to +2 Bank build-limit.
– "Tulip Speculation" home-city shipment increased from 15% to 25%.
– "Coffee Trade" unique-church improvement now instead increases Bank build-limit by 1 and Settler movement speed & (all; including construction) work rates by 5%.

If you are opposed to change though, you could just go with the first line.

7-8 Ruyter?

[Garja]

Is Dutch bad? Yes.
Will they get better? No.

Is Dutch bad? Not really bad, just a bit weak compared to top civs.
Will they get better? They are already better from RE and will get marginally better with the xp boost (and 5 huss card that someone voiced for).

The small early boost is the exp boost. Having all your cards back to back while building banks and making units is pretty good for flexibility.
300w 300f without any nerf would be too good. Banks are great, they're totally worth their cost.

I mean okay, but all that would do is give you what? 30 more xp per bank, so at most you're getting 120 extra xp. 1 extra vill. Maybe. Not 100% sure 5v would be the preferred choice over bank wagon. 1 More hussar if you even decide to send that card. Maybe 10% more hp on your skirms, if you ever reach the point where you want to send that card (which is almost never worth sending anyway).

Oh and the Potential to build 2 less banks.

Yay. Civ fixed? Everyone's just scared of breaking the civ because no one's testing these changes :/ It's the same reason no one's willing to try out Iro buffs or India buffs, both of which are clearly not performing well on EP at the moment.

The fact that Dutch have at least 3 completely unwinnable matchups should be saying something about their state in the game at the moment.

The XP boost is huge. Not huge in the sense that will make the civ jump to the top but in the sense that will improve the civ itself greatly, compared to the RE patch. 5v card is bad cause it will better than a bank wagon and will change civ design in addition to balance.

The potential to make extra banks (1 actually) is probably the least significant boost, I would totally remove it and make age1 cards give +2 limit.

Iro will be buffed next patch with WC aura and Aenna cost reversals. India can't be buffed, it's like buffing Japan.
Dutch might have 3 completely unwinnable MUs but that's the same with half of civs. In a pool of 14 civs having only 3 hard (or impossible) MUs is not a bad result. And I'm confident that French and Germans won't even be unwinnable in the next patch. Hard for sure but there is a chance.

[Mitoe]

I'm not going to make a lengthy reply right now, but the nerf from EP 1.0 to EP 1.1 to compensate for 300f 300w banks would be to revert the limit back to 4. The bank limit is not the problem with Dutch.

As I said before, the xp buff is okay, but having played 100s of games with the 110xp it honestly hardly helps at all, and another slight improvement in that area will do very little to help the civ.

[Kaiserklein]

Well they should still have to go "all-in" on eco or units, but at the moment it's excessive, that's all.

And the others are right about the extra villager, aging 30 seconds sooner because of it every game might be a problem. So Jerom might be right to suggest the +1v -100c thing.

Including both changes may be too much, but I think one or the other would go a long way to fixing the civ.

Actually even +1 vil / -100g means a 3:35 age up every game. +1 vil without removing a gold crate could mean 3:10 age up on some crates starts.
But I think it's fine if dutch ages up at 3:35, after all their rush wouldn't really be viable on ep because of high resources maps + skirms sucking vs cav, so they would do the same greedy builds as now but 25 sec faster and with + 1 vil, I think that's decent. Still not sure how high xp should be, I think at least 110 xp is required, otherwise I'm pretty sure you don't have a shipment ready when you hit colonial at 3:35 with only a 70 xp bounty.

[Mitoe]

I don't see how you'd be aging earlier with +1v -100c. That vill will barely gather you 120ish food by 2:40.

[Garja]

+1 vill would achieve basically nothing (with -100g to compensate obviously) since the problem with Dutch is not in the eco. Dutch only problem is that they don't have musks which is the thing to work around with builds and micro. The other thing is the late game part which can either be fixed or simply considered a feature of the civ, partly compensated by the 150 pop for army.

[Kaiserklein]

Well on nilla dutch age up at 3:35 every game and they have -100g + 1 vil

[Garja]

Pretty sure they only have +1v. Also even aging with 15v it is 3.45 and you kinda need 16v to build banks out of 700w 600w without bank wagon.