Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by deleted_user »

making banks cheaper and reducing default limit back down to 4 before cards might work well to balance 1v1 (less early eco investment, more military) and team (no auto 6 bank).
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Garja »

Mitoe wrote: - Play age 2, grab TPs and be greedy while making units.
- Try to force them to commit to a longer age 2 and something like an 8 pike shipment or minutemen pop. Continue making units. If they commit to full Colonial, you have a big advantage over their awkward unit composition. Cavalry will give Dutch nightmares in age 2.
- If they go for an age up, just push them hard while they're aging or just after they age. You can try to kill some houses, force idle time, kill villagers, etc. but this isn't your main goal: your main goal is to deny them that 1000w shipment and force something like 9 ruyter or 8 skirm. Dutch is extremely weak if they're not able to get a 1000w card out first or second in early age 3. There's no need to stay in their base once you've denied this, just leave and age.
- You'll outscale them hard in mid fortress if you've done all of this: you have map control, an equal (if not stronger) economy, maybe even a full TP line with stagecoach, and depending on your civ you likely have access to more potent unit compositions or shipments. Not to mention your lategame is likely better than Dutch.

The colonial thing is only true if you bring musks to the table or actually more like a full 3 unit combo with a decent mass. Before that point Dutch do fine.
A FB with a TP line project shouldn't work in my experience. Early on French actually have to be careful with a fb because dutch can make huss+skirm+8 pikes and that's superior to musk/huss (8bows?) in small numbers. And if you drop a TP in transition (or at start even) your spam is going to be even worse as French early on.

The dinamic you're describing here is more similar to Ports vs Dutch, because they have 3 tcs for free and wit 80f they outscale very easily.
Image Image Image
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Mitoe »

Shipping 8 pike is very committal by Dutch. And it usually costs them a lot. I've played 100s of Dutch games on RE and EP, and they're just bad.

And sorry, but the changes suggested on the EP forum aren't going to fix the civ. If anything, they'll be weaker than they are on the current version of EP.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Garja »

Of course is committal, you plan to punish French for trying to take the TP line. Basically what I'm implying here is that French either have to play classic musk/huss colo with 1 TP at most (and probably building in base with longer rush distance) or go for 1 TP semi FF. The stagecoach strat can be punished imo.

The changes for the next update are not really going to improve Dutch. They're meant to just rework the current state of the civ, since the 6 bank thing + age1 cards are broken (when viable) and 110xp per bank is not balanced when all other eco buildings grant xp for 20% of their cost.
Image Image Image
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Mitoe »

Even if you ship 8 pike and try to punish the TPs and stuff like that France still wins if they just make units while booming. Even losing 1-2 TPs is worth the cost of Dutch shipping 8 pike. The two games I mentioned from the tournament, this is actually exactly what Ramex and Raphael did, they shipped 8 pike in an attempt to punish greedy play, and it didn't work out. For Raphael it almost did, because Ryan was poorly macro'd and didn't finish several batches of units in the early game. But in general France just has to make musk/huss while booming and then either win a long Colonial war or push when Dutch ages up to force a 9 ruyter or 8 skirm shipment and delay 1000w while aging behind it.

So basically we're not fixing Dutch is all I'm hearing. :/
User avatar
United States of America iCourt
Retired Contributor
Posts: 700
Joined: Jan 14, 2016
ESO: iCourt
Location: Monterey, California

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by iCourt »

What would you're suggested changes to this Civ be? @Mitoe
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Mitoe »

Mitoe wrote:Pretty sure Dutch is among the worst civs on RE patch and EP currently, for 1v1 at least. The changes made in the EP made their power spikes a bit stronger but didn't really address any of their core weaknesses. Building a 5th or 6th bank is often not even doable if your opponent plays correctly, and sometimes even if they don't try to punish you too hard you just end up losing anyway because they take so long to pay off. The 20% gather rate cards in age 1 are also just never really worth sending, you always have something better to send.

I think Dutch would be a solid civ with these changes (changes based off of RE patch):

- +1 Villager at the start of the game
- Increase bank build bounty to 140xp
- Buff Tulip Speculation in age 4 from 15% to something like 25% or 30% to improve their mediocre lategame

Pretty sure the bank limit is fine at 4, and the age 1 bank cards (although bad) don't really need to be changed either.

Doubt they'll be any good in the next iteration of the EP though, to be perfectly honest :/

This is what I suggested earlier in the thread. I would love to test any changes to the civ, just not capable of doing so at the moment :P
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Garja »

Mitoe wrote:Even if you ship 8 pike and try to punish the TPs and stuff like that France still wins if they just make units while booming. Even losing 1-2 TPs is worth the cost of Dutch shipping 8 pike. The two games I mentioned from the tournament, this is actually exactly what Ramex and Raphael did, they shipped 8 pike in an attempt to punish greedy play, and it didn't work out. For Raphael it almost did, because Ryan was poorly macro'd and didn't finish several batches of units in the early game. But in general France just has to make musk/huss while booming and then either win a long Colonial war or push when Dutch ages up to force a 9 ruyter or 8 skirm shipment and delay 1000w while aging behind it.

So basically we're not fixing Dutch is all I'm hearing. :/

If french lose 1-2 tps (which btw is basically the whole TP line on most maps) then Dutch eco is simply superior. Thing is that Dutch 4 bank ff is way superior to any 4v 700g semi of French. So the stagecoach semi (assuming 3 tps at most) is just to be on par with dutch 4 bank semi.
Also I never send 1000w as Dutch except for when I'm totally leading and they're still quite good. And by that I mean that they can soon spam from 2 raxes and 1 stable while French usually can afford only 1 rax and 1 stable spam for a while.

Btw, Ramex got outplayed in the cav micro and his build wasn't good (3 bank semi with pikes?) ad Raphael was in the lead till he wasted the huss+pikes in h2o base.
Image Image Image
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Mitoe »

You would never want to do 4v 700g vs dutch in general.

You're not going to lose those TPs for free if you're making units. Even if you do lose them it doesn't put Dutch in the lead. Shipping units as Dutch, especially in age 2, is not ideal and delays their boom and fortress time by a lot.

I don't know how you're winning games without sending 1000w (do you even play Dutch? We've played mirrors before but I don't think you ever play the civ tbh). I find that I lose the majority of games where I don't or can't send 1000w. Also the only reason you can train units from 2 raxes and 1 stable is because ruyters cost less than dragoons.

Anyway, I guess the civ can stay among the bottom tier, along with India and Iroquois (civs who also will never receive buffs).
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Mitoe wrote:Pretty sure Dutch is among the worst civs on RE patch and EP currently, for 1v1 at least. The changes made in the EP made their power spikes a bit stronger but didn't really address any of their core weaknesses. Building a 5th or 6th bank is often not even doable if your opponent plays correctly, and sometimes even if they don't try to punish you too hard you just end up losing anyway because they take so long to pay off. The 20% gather rate cards in age 1 are also just never really worth sending, you always have something better to send.

I think Dutch would be a solid civ with these changes (changes based off of RE patch):

- +1 Villager at the start of the game
- Increase bank build bounty to 140xp
- Buff Tulip Speculation in age 4 from 15% to something like 25% or 30% to improve their mediocre lategame

Pretty sure the bank limit is fine at 4, and the age 1 bank cards (although bad) don't really need to be changed either.

Doubt they'll be any good in the next iteration of the EP though, to be perfectly honest :/

Honestly dutch would probs be best civ if we do what you say. I don't wanna sound like an ol' nilla scrub, but there you could rush otto as dutch lol, believe it or not. Like, the thing to do was skirm/pike rush, burn the artillery foundry before the guy can get abus out (yes, you could do that really), give up your forward rax while you age up for ruyts spam and win.
But anyway that's not what I wanted to talk about. This : you had the fastest age up, with a very decent eco (you hit colonial at 3:35 with 15 vils + a bank so basically 19 vils lol. I know you don't have market upgrades or a TP but you have bank XP and +15% on gold). Thanks to the bank you still get a shipment ready when you hit colo so you can instantly ship 8 pikes... 8 pikes at 4:15... Or you can just get your 4 banks at 6 min with 700w 600w and get 560 xp (more or less a shipment) out of it. Np
And you don't talk about removing a gold crate ; on nilla you have +1 vil / -1 gold crate compared to TAD. This means dutch would be able to age up at 3:10 with 14 vils + a bank + a shipment ready thanks to 140 xp bank if they start with an extra food crate. I don't want that xD
The extra vil is not a change to underestimate really.
It's true that on TAD tps are cheaper, which favours other civs, and skirms aren't as good against cav, but on TAD you also have the bank wagon. So in the end TAD dutch would be approx as OP as nilla dutch, maybe even better in that greedy meta with high resources maps.
I think +1 vils / -100g while keeping the xp at 140 per bank would make dutch a very decent civ. It would mean nilla dutch with worse skirms and worse against TP civs, which would probs be fine. Or maybe 110 xp, not sure
300w 300f is also interesting, but the bank wagon would become kinda worse, if you see what I mean

Jerom wrote:I fear Dutch is structurally too weak

No it's actually really not imo. As I explained in this same post, on nilla dutch was really OP, and not at all underplayed like they are on TAD now. People knew what to do against dutch but it just didn't work lol. So you see, it can be made a good civ, without a lot of changes. We just have to find how to balance them properly.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
No Flag hunter
Dragoon
Posts: 456
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
Location: Rome, S.P.Q.R

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by hunter »

You should just wall a it make good base structure make 15 skirms and u are fine in colonial as dutch, just go age 3 and do what dutch does,ofcourse if kynesie played the way he does mwithout walls he would be pr10
Jerom wrote: Garja is a better player than most of us here
Jerom wrote:Please don't bump old threads, especially when all you have to say is "lol"
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Mitoe »

+1v -100c would be a decent alternative. 300f 300w is also a decent alternative, which does not make the bank wagon any worse than it is now. Just because the card is less value in resources doesn't mean you're not going to send it: it still gives you everything it did before. If you changed the cost of villagers to 90f would villager shipments become worse?

As for Nilla Dutch, Nilla's not balanced at all a balanced game anyway. Dutch also had skirms that basically countered cav in ranged mode, maps were trash tier, TPs more expensive, etc. I don't think a 7v Dutch in TAD would be comparable to Nilla Dutch given how fundamentally different the game is.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:+1v -100c would be a decent alternative. 300f 300w is also a decent alternative, which does not make the bank wagon any worse than it is now. Just because the card is less value in resources doesn't mean you're not going to send it: it still gives you everything it did before. If you changed the cost of villagers to 90f would villager shipments become worse?

As for Nilla Dutch, Nilla's not balanced at all a balanced game anyway. Dutch also had skirms that basically countered cav in ranged mode, maps were trash tier, TPs more expensive, etc. I don't think a 7v Dutch in TAD would be comparable to Nilla Dutch given how fundamentally different the game is.

Some people don't really want more changes, I'd nerf fre and buff dutch/iro, but that's likely not really going to happen.
+1v though would be broken and really, it would be nilla's dutch meaning that you can't fb vs them, and their semi ff is simply better.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Mitoe wrote:+1v -100c would be a decent alternative. 300f 300w is also a decent alternative, which does not make the bank wagon any worse than it is now. Just because the card is less value in resources doesn't mean you're not going to send it: it still gives you everything it did before. If you changed the cost of villagers to 90f would villager shipments become worse?

Nope 90f vils wouldn't change anything because what limits vil production is the training time, not the cost. So you wnt to ship vils to speed up the process. For banks it's the other way around, right ? Why would you ship a bank wagon when you can ship crates to build banks ? 700w would be worth almost 1.5 bank wagon, resources-wise (didn't take into account the VS you need to build the bank). In that sense, bank wagon would become worse. Or rather, shipping crates to build banks would become better, but it's the same in the end.

Mitoe wrote:As for Nilla Dutch, Nilla's not balanced at all a balanced game anyway. Dutch also had skirms that basically countered cav in ranged mode, maps were trash tier, TPs more expensive, etc. I don't think a 7v Dutch in TAD would be comparable to Nilla Dutch given how fundamentally different the game is.

Yes but what really made dutch OP was the age up time with a shipment ready because of xp from banks. And as I said they didn't have a bank wagon. Also don't forget that bow rush was actually a viable option on nilla, and it was probs one of the best options against dutch ; on TAD dutch don't fear that. Anyway, just keep in mind the 3:35 age up.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Garja »

Mitoe wrote:You would never want to do 4v 700g vs dutch in general.

You're not going to lose those TPs for free if you're making units. Even if you do lose them it doesn't put Dutch in the lead. Shipping units as Dutch, especially in age 2, is not ideal and delays their boom and fortress time by a lot.

I don't know how you're winning games without sending 1000w (do you even play Dutch? We've played mirrors before but I don't think you ever play the civ tbh). I find that I lose the majority of games where I don't or can't send 1000w. Also the only reason you can train units from 2 raxes and 1 stable is because ruyters cost less than dragoons.

Anyway, I guess the civ can stay among the bottom tier, along with India and Iroquois (civs who also will never receive buffs).

It's not like you lose them for free, but it is the fact that you invest on them and then lose them while Dutch is not losing the banks. Dutch 4 bank build is stronger than any standard French build (tho standard semi with 1 TP doesn't do bad because of the 2 cannons) and that's why French has to match it with a stagecoach buildor try to win in colonial. 8 pikes is basically the standard in mirror whenever the map has a reasonable rush distance, so it's not bad at all. bank 700w 8 pikes 600w is just fine as long as 8 pikes find use, which against TPs and cav they definetly do.

I played plenty of Dutch in past btw, I'd say it's my 6th most played civ. And one thing I know is that 1000w is only a recent adaptation to the semi ff meta. You don't really need 1000w when you age up with 4 banks, full market ups, stable+rax and can buy any wood you want for additional military buildings. Ruyter cost less than dragoons and are cost effective for that exact reason. But the reason why you can spam from 3 buildings is that a 4 bank ff with full market ups is basically a 3 tp stagecoach ff.
And btw Iro is not even that bad, nor is India.
Image Image Image
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Jaeger »

Mitoe wrote: 300f 300w is also a decent alternative, which does not make the bank wagon any worse than it is now.

It does. If a bank cost 5f 5w, would you send the bank wagon? No, it's worse.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Mitoe »

*Sigh*

This is why we shouldn't have even tried to balance the game in the first place. To sum up this thread:

Is Dutch bad? Yes.
Will they get better? No.

:P
User avatar
United States of America iCourt
Retired Contributor
Posts: 700
Joined: Jan 14, 2016
ESO: iCourt
Location: Monterey, California

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by iCourt »

Mitoe wrote:*Sigh*

This is why we shouldn't have even tried to balance the game in the first place. To sum up this thread:

Is Dutch bad? Yes.
Will they get better? No.

:P


That's my preference. I feel new maps, bug fixes, and anti cheat should have all been rolled out before we touched balance. This would have made the patch more successful.
User avatar
India _DB_
Howdah
Posts: 1787
Joined: May 20, 2015

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by _DB_ »

I want to go with zoom suggestions

5vil card
5 huss
140 xp banks
cofee trade dont nerf speed of skirms, instead they give 10% hp to skirms
fast age gives 4 huss on aging (to hold timings better)
Doing what you like is Freedom...
Liking what you do is Happiness...
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Mitoe »

I mean okay, but all that would do is give you what? 30 more xp per bank, so at most you're getting 120 extra xp. 1 extra vill. Maybe. Not 100% sure 5v would be the preferred choice over bank wagon. 1 More hussar if you even decide to send that card. Maybe 10% more hp on your skirms, if you ever reach the point where you want to send that card (which is almost never worth sending anyway).

Oh and the Potential to build 2 less banks.

Yay. Civ fixed? Everyone's just scared of breaking the civ because no one's testing these changes :/ It's the same reason no one's willing to try out Iro buffs or India buffs, both of which are clearly not performing well on EP at the moment.

The fact that Dutch have at least 3 completely unwinnable matchups should be saying something about their state in the game at the moment.
France iNcog
Ninja
Posts: 13236
Joined: Mar 7, 2015

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by iNcog »

Mitoe my good friend, you need to set up a second partition on your mac and install windows 7 on it. Just to play TAD!

The real issue here is that ESO is down and it's tougher for people to find the time to play-test these changes.

I would advise running an open-beta phase, where people are able to play-test for themselves. Feel free to test out several possible changes as well, give everyone a little more flexibility.

I also think that India and Iroq will not be left in their current state.

What we need is a little time and some more play-testing. Perhaps open up the patch-testing to more people than just the closed team.

Just listing off several potential ways of handling things.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
France iNcog
Ninja
Posts: 13236
Joined: Mar 7, 2015

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by iNcog »

@Mitoe do you think that the issue with Dutch is that their boom is too slow or that their boom is not powerful enough?

There are ways of acceleration a civilization's builds without affecting the power.

300/300 banks would make Dutch a faster civilization overall, but would not make them more powerful once the banks are up (assuming bank gather rates remain the same).

I think that XP changes also allow for Dutch to gain in speed, streamlining their builds, but doesn't necessarily make them more powerful per se (you get your mid-game boom going from the 10 minute mark instead of 11 minute mark for example).

Or, is the difficulty for Dutch due to their shipments being relatively weak?

I think what would be ideal would be to first identify and obtain a consensus on where Dutch is weak. Then come up with changes which address that weakness without touching other areas.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

  • Quote

Post by Mitoe »

The problem with Dutch is that they're very limited in what they can do, and what they can do is not even that great.

Dutch can somewhat compete with other civs if they manage to hit fortress with 4 banks relatively safely. They're definitely not bad at this point in the game, but nothing crazy. Which is fine. It's not like we want them to be crazy strong, but the problem is that they have a very hard time reaching this point without losing the game or being at a severe disadvantage. At virtually no point in the first 5-6 minutes of the game do they have any flexibility in their build without getting some pretty insane treasure advantages in age 1 (which, granted, is doable with the envoy, and since most people are inefficient at scouting the map in age 1).

Their build is very tight: the costliness of banks is in stark contrast to other civs' booms, where you pay a smaller amount for a smaller gain, which gives you more room to invest your resources as you need them at that moment. At the same time, your shipments, which are by no means strong, are extremely important to both your military and your economy because you literally cannot invest effectively in either without investing a shipment in it.

This is both good and bad. On the one hand, it's one of the things that helps differentiate Dutch from other civs. They require very precise play, and this forces the player to commit to greedy play or not. There's not much room for anything inbetween. Sometimes even a small mistake can be heavily punished by their opponent. There's nothing inherently wrong with this design; however, when your civ is not even that strong when you do manage to get through all of these decisions unscathed, then Dutch becomes a very high-risk, low-reward civ to play.

Granted, EP 1.0 Dutch can build 6 banks. This may make them a somewhat medium-high reward civ in some cases, but it also takes longer to hit your power spike, and in general this just wasn't the best way to go about balancing the civ.

The extra xp is nice, compared to RE patch. It does help slightly, but it's not enough to fix their core issues. Frequently within the early game Dutch's 3nd or 4th shipments can't even be put to good use right away because your economy literally can't keep up with the demand. You'll start out in the Colonial age by sending a bank wagon, then follow up with that 700w shipment you've got sitting there from the extra xp, but it will just sit on the floor or in your inventory for a minute before you can really do anything with it because you decided to make a single batch of cavalry. Again, this is all a part of Dutch's heavily committal playstyle: boom or mass, very little inbetween.

But in order to compete with other civs at the moment they just need a small boost in the early game. Nothing big, but slightly cheaper banks or an extra villager or crate in age 1 would help greatly to put the civ back in a respectable place. 300f 300w banks is only going to amount to a total of 300 resources saved, most games (because 1 of the 4 banks will almost always come from the bank wagon card which you will likely send almost every game). You could argue that you'll net a few more resources because you "should" be able to build them sooner because they are cheaper, but since 600 resources is still quite expensive you're still going to be relying on your shipment timings in order to invest in banks.
France iNcog
Ninja
Posts: 13236
Joined: Mar 7, 2015

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by iNcog »

Sounds like they just need a small nudge to help their early game flexibility, so they don't have to all-in on either economy or units.

I could see an extra villager helping out with that, I don't think it's over the top. Same goes to Bank cost reduction.

I like those changes on paper, would be nice enough to test them out doubtlessly.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Mitoe »

Well they should still have to go "all-in" on eco or units, but at the moment it's excessive, that's all.

And the others are right about the extra villager, aging 30 seconds sooner because of it every game might be a problem. So Jerom might be right to suggest the +1v -100c thing.

Including both changes may be too much, but I think one or the other would go a long way to fixing the civ.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV