Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

[[Armag] diarouga]

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Lol idk why you guys don't believe me when I say you can age up 15 vils idless with -100g / +1 vil... When was the last time you played nilla ? Did you ever play nilla lol ? Because I played it not so long ago and I remember perfectly you can age up at 3:40 every single game, ok let's say 3:45 max. And I just launched a game on nilla, I had 200w 300g start (worst start if you want to age fast right ?) and still managed to age up idleless, without treasures. But whatever

What I doubt is if you can get your shipment considerably faster with it.

? You age up at 3:35 with a bank (=140 xp) so you have a shipment ready. I don't understand

The bank part is the one I doubt.

Well maybe 5sec after aging but you do. I remember that otto couldn't do shit vs 8pikes 1st, that was insane...

[momuuu]

Well with EP hunts I can't imagine that is problematic, that at least makes the civ less one dimensional.

[gibson]

Jerom always preaching about how bad Dutch is smfh..... He won't be satisfied til bank price nerfed, their rate increase, xp increased, and Dutch get 2 falc shipment.....

[zoom]

Lol idk why you guys don't believe me when I say you can age up 15 vils idless with -100g / +1 vil... When was the last time you played nilla ? Did you ever play nilla lol ? Because I played it not so long ago and I remember perfectly you can age up at 3:40 every single game, ok let's say 3:45 max. And I just launched a game on nilla, I had 200w 300g start (worst start if you want to age fast right ?) and still managed to age up idleless, without treasures. But whatever

I believe you!

[zoom]

Jerom always preaching about how bad Dutch is smfh..... He won't be satisfied til bank price nerfed, their rate increase, xp increased, and Dutch get 2 falc shipment.....

You are delusional if you think he'll stop at that!

[momuuu]

Jerom always preaching about how bad Dutch is smfh..... He won't be satisfied til bank price nerfed, their rate increase, xp increased, and Dutch get 2 flat shipment.....

I know I dont seem very reliable as I obviously have a personal agenda aswell. Ive openly admitted that I'd be pretty happy if Dutch became retardedly OP. I think Ive also shown in this topic and before that my opinion of dutch is relatively positive compared to most high level players (for example, I basically rate every match up way better than Mitoe does).

The reason I am still preaching is that I actually legitemately consider dutch unplayable in competitive settings, like tournaments. This is not something I am just saying to get my buffs through, this is actually backed up by my civ picks in tournament. I estimate to have played more than 3000 games as dutch, and not more than 300 with any other civ. In my tournament picks I still reluctantly pick Dutch. In the winter tournament bracket stages I only played dutch twice in eight games for example. I dont like having to pick dutch in a first pick and as counter pick they are worthless. I am saying this to try to show that it is not bias in what I am saying, I act by these opinions I present aswell.

I know this post is kinda long, but I think this is a pretty significant point because your initial statement isn't ridiculous at all. I also can't garantuee my opinions aren't biased, nobody can. I like to believe I'm not very biased at all in this case however.

[momuuu]

Why I doubt you easily get a bank in time with an extra villager: Right now, with a 15 villager age up, which is easy and leaves you with about ~50-70 spare food, you struggle getting a bank out in time. If you decide to age one villager quicker at +1 villager, I think your age up is going to be pretty tight. It might be idleless, but it's not going to easily be idleless for sure. That almost has to mean it slightly delays your bank from going up, as you do not have the 50-70 spare food while clicking to age two. So maybe your bank is going to be up 15 seconds late or so. With a settler taking 25 seconds to train, that doesn't mean you are that fast (you are then 10 seconds faster). If it's going to be too strong, then Dutch has to be pretty strong already right now. It is not pretty strong right now, shipping 8 pikes first isn't even really a thing. So these 15 seconds (or even 25 seconds in the ideal scenario), can't make or break a game.

[gibson]

Dutch is for sure a lower tier civ, but I don't think they're unplayable in a competitive setting, or at least not as bad as other civs. They were used in the tourney in high level match ups. Personally I've always thought that Dutch has been played incorrectly...... No one takes advantage of their fast age 2 time and age 2 skirms..... Especially on a map like high Plains I think they should be aggressive......push in age 2 and take tps. A decent mechanical player should be able to beat musk hus early with skirm pike.

[IP Man]

@Jerom

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i dont understand why you are complaining for Dutch not getting a shipment in age 2 right away when they age at 4:00... If you wanna get a shipment when you age, build a market in age one and do 17 vill age up.
Why do you even want Dutch to get available shipment in age 2 at 4:00 when other civs get it at 4:30-4:45...
And why do you wanna have more eco and more starting army?
You have 3 banks (with the 3 bank ff strat). Thats more than 10 extra vills in age 2 compared to germany (6 vills) or French (5 vills). If you want falconets you can send 1000 coin and make them (you will also get xp for them). After all you are Dutch, so you can even gather for them.
And even skirm/huss or skirm/pike is better than musk/huss in colonial. For example if you play vs brits. while they send musk upgrades, you send send infantry upgrades (they affect all the infantry units dutch has lol). So, with one card, you get better skirm+pikes while they only get better musks.
Or when you want shipment for age 3, you can build 2 tps instead of a third bank. You will have the same eco as Dutch/France, but more shipments.

[Aizamk]

this elifent who has played lots n lots of dutch in nilla would like to claim that people used to usually age 16 on nilla til this elifent started 15ing and 8 piking with bank in transition >:)

[momuuu]

@Jerom

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i dont understand why you are complaining for Dutch not getting a shipment in age 2 right away when they age at 4:00... If you wanna get a shipment when you age, build a market in age one and do 17 vill age up.
Why do you even want Dutch to get available shipment in age 2 at 4:00 when other civs get it at 4:30-4:45...
And why do you wanna have more eco and more starting army?
You have 3 banks (with the 3 bank ff strat). Thats more than 10 extra vills in age 2 compared to germany (6 vills) or French (5 vills). If you want falconets you can send 1000 coin and make them (you will also get xp for them). After all you are Dutch, so you can even gather for them.
And even skirm/huss or skirm/pike is better than musk/huss in colonial. For example if you play vs brits. while they send musk upgrades, you send send infantry upgrades (they affect all the infantry units dutch has lol). So, with one card, you get better skirm+pikes while they only get better musks.
Or when you want shipment for age 3, you can build 2 tps instead of a third bank. You will have the same eco as Dutch/France, but more shipments.

I''m pretty sure whats actually the case here is that you have trouble reading rather than me complaining about not having a shipment right in age two at four minutes.

Other than that, 3 banks ~ 13.5 unupgrade vills. With 30% upgrade on food (say on 15 vills) and 10% on coin (say on 10 vills), which sounds reasonable for a civ shipping 5 vills and getting market upgrades, maybe even a bit low, you get +5 vills (for a shipment) and then 5.5 villagers for the market upgrades. You get 10.5 villagers out of nowhere as a civ without any eco bonusses but market upgrades and a 5 villager shipment. So as dutch you are 3 villagers ahead of someone. Given that producing villagers that cost coin over food takes about 1.5 villagers away from your eco (maybe more like 0.5 given that they have a gold gathering upgrade), you are left being 2 villagers ahead while spending 1400 resources (two banks, and a shipment worth a bank not taken into account) while this other player has spend 600 resources on his economy. And we're not even talking about stagecoach shit which is just sad.

[Garja]

Lol idk why you guys don't believe me when I say you can age up 15 vils idless with -100g / +1 vil... When was the last time you played nilla ? Did you ever play nilla lol ? Because I played it not so long ago and I remember perfectly you can age up at 3:40 every single game, ok let's say 3:45 max. And I just launched a game on nilla, I had 200w 300g start (worst start if you want to age fast right ?) and still managed to age up idleless, without treasures. But whatever

I played Dutch on nilla extensively (had to do that for tourney practice if anything) and ye ofc 15v idleless is possible. The point is if it is any beneficial since 16v is already 4.10 age up and with one less vill your transition bank is going to be a bit more akward to place. But the point isn't even that first bank, it is more the snowball on other banks since you don't have a bank wagon on nilla.
Anyway I'm trying to age with 14v on TAD mostly to test the TP strats (and other bank builds) and it is possible but not perfectly smooth. It makes sense with a build like the stagecoach one.

[Kaiserklein]

Why I doubt you easily get a bank in time with an extra villager: Right now, with a 15 villager age up, which is easy and leaves you with about ~50-70 spare food, you struggle getting a bank out in time. If you decide to age one villager quicker at +1 villager, I think your age up is going to be pretty tight. It might be idleless, but it's not going to easily be idleless for sure. That almost has to mean it slightly delays your bank from going up, as you do not have the 50-70 spare food while clicking to age two. So maybe your bank is going to be up 15 seconds late or so. With a settler taking 25 seconds to train, that doesn't mean you are that fast (you are then 10 seconds faster). If it's going to be too strong, then Dutch has to be pretty strong already right now. It is not pretty strong right now, shipping 8 pikes first isn't even really a thing. So these 15 seconds (or even 25 seconds in the ideal scenario), can't make or break a game.

In both cases you have to build a bank with 15 vils while aging up, it's just the same. Even if you have 50 less food when you click age up, you will be able to have your bank more or less in time (50 food with 15 villagers will be gathered in 4 seconds, realistically it doesn't really matter). Also you have an envoy so you will almost always grab a few treasures, and that's more than enough to complete your build (as I said you can age up idleless without any treasure, so with treasures it's even easier to do it + get bank in time). So even if you have those 4, or let's say 5 seconds after you hit age 2 before your banks is up and you get xp from it, you're still 20 seconds faster than with today's dutchs.
If you think 20-25 seconds faster won't change a game, I don't know what to say. Maybe try to go play a bit against nilla dutch, idk. As dutch vs russia on nilla, you can burn your opponent's bh with 8 pikes first card if his fb is close enough to your base, and he won't be able to do anything about it. You will probs lose most of your pikes as you siege bh since he gets a batch + 5 cos out so it's not worth doing it, but the point was just to show how much it can change a game : would you even dream of 8 pikes as dutch fast enough to deny a russian fb lol ? I remember getting my tower burnt by 8 pikes when I used to tower rush as ger vs dutch. 8 pikes at 4:20, idk... Or, even, if you see the guy goes fb (for example as fre), you ship 3 huss first, and you have 3 huss at 4:30-40 at his fb, and he can't get his stuff built. If you don't think that changes the game, then you're hopeless. It basicaly means dutch can't get rushed, except by azzie/russ/otto, and even for those civs it's really risky to rush.
Of course here I'm talking about nilla meta, so you probs won't play it that way on ep maps with ep civs. But still it shows how 20-25 sec can change everything. It just means you will be able to do the exact same build as you do now, but 20ish seconds faster, so basically you won't get your first huss at 6 min but at the same time as france does : 5:40. And at 5:40, your extra vil has been worth 340 VS (200VS if you remove the 100g crate) which means you will be to have your huss batch even earlier because 200 VS is worth more than half a huss so you don't have to delay your batch too much. etc, etc, etc.

Other than that, 3 banks ~ 13.5 unupgrade vills. With 30% upgrade on food (say on 15 vills) and 10% on coin (say on 10 vills), which sounds reasonable for a civ shipping 5 vills and getting market upgrades, maybe even a bit low, you get +5 vills (for a shipment) and then 5.5 villagers for the market upgrades. You get 10.5 villagers out of nowhere as a civ without any eco bonusses but market upgrades and a 5 villager shipment. So as dutch you are 3 villagers ahead of someone. Given that producing villagers that cost coin over food takes about 1.5 villagers away from your eco (maybe more like 0.5 given that they have a gold gathering upgrade), you are left being 2 villagers ahead while spending 1400 resources (two banks, and a shipment worth a bank not taken into account) while this other player has spend 600 resources on his economy. And we're not even talking about stagecoach shit which is just sad.

You forget that dutch also get market upgrades for their vils though... At least Mitoe does and it seems to work

I played Dutch on nilla extensively (had to do that for tourney practice if anything) and ye ofc 15v idleless is possible. The point is if it is any beneficial since 16v is already 4.10 age up and with one less vill your transition bank is going to be a bit more akward to place. But the point isn't even that first bank, it is more the snowball on other banks since you don't have a bank wagon on nilla.
Anyway I'm trying to age with 14v on TAD mostly to test the TP strats (and other bank builds) and it is possible but not perfectly smooth. It makes sense with a build like the stagecoach one.

Well maybe you played before Aizamk the great elifent shifted the meta with his revolutionary build. For my part when I played nilla back in 2013-2014 people always aged up with 15 vils as dutch, and good players didn't really have an idle time.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Keep in mind that Jerom can build 3 banks, then build a stable and still gets a 5 huss batch vs France on TAD, so 20-25s isn't really a big deal.

[Mitoe]

Alright, I can agree with most of this (which btw can be summarized as "being not a colonial civ", or "being weak in colonial"), however I disagree on some evaluations you make.
First of all, an unscratched 4 bank semi is very good, not just "not bad". It is the equivalent of a 3tp stagecoach semi FF if not more. If Dutch gets to such position they top 70% of civs (basically all except French, Germans, current Ports and probably Japan/Brits), since they also have pretty decent units in fortress. Sure some other civs also come closer to that power (India ffing perhaps or Iro with stagecoach ff) but at the same time, in contrast, Brits/Japan are not black and white MUs either on the EP for Dutch.
Also in mid fortress Dutch superiority fades away and they get outscaled by pretty much all civs except 2-3. That's the other weakness I mentioned earlier.

Anyway, that is for the ideal situation Dutch would like to be in.

Now, it is true that early on Dutch don't have much flexibility. You use 700 resources for each extra bank and that limits your unit production (need wood for houses and other res for units/vills).
However this is essentially because players always assume that you have to drop banks otherwise Dutch suck. Now, this consideration is likely very true on RE maps where you only get one mine and not really safe hunts, but on EP maps you can go as far as dropping zero banks until 700w (700w, bank wagon) and use all your resources for units, while just dropping market in transition (works better with 200w start ofc where you do early market in discovery).
This is good for example against civs like Otto that will clearly have less eco than Dutch but can win just by having more units / better combo at one point in the game.
Of course banks are good and you should still drop atleast 1-2 early on, but then you're not forced to drop any more than that for a big while. 2 banks is already like sending 5v 4v with another civ so if you lose because you have less units/ not flexibility (aka no 2nd military building spam) then that's a clear indication you should stop making banks and focus on units. I know this is kinda obvious for a Dutch player but sometimes it gets overlooked anyway.

Also now with better maps there are other options available to Dutch that are not very exploreed.
4v can actually find use as long as you're not totally confined to your TC area. And that should be the case if you make more units rather than an extra bank. 4v could be used as alternative to the 3rd bank when you want an eco boost but also want to save the 700 res for the moment.
Another option is the stagecoach build (especially with 14v age up) were you drop 2tps in transition and use 400w for stagecoach+ market. Then build military buildings out of 700w and bank wagon aftet that. 2 tps+bank is close to 3 banks and tps can be set on wood for pikes, so that you can actually think of playing prolonged colo.

In conclusion what I mean is that Dutch probably has some unexplored ways to refine their classic gameplay (they're not up yet to the current meta imo) so I don't think they deserve substantial boosts like cheaper banks or 1 extra vill. Between the 2, I would be more inclined to the +1v since it would be a reversal of a previous nerf and not a deliberate idea of the patch team like the cheapest banks (which again makes sense, but could easily be an overbuff).

So we're basically on the same page except that you believe the early fortress 4 bank power spike is stronger than I think it is. I wouldn't say it's equivalent to a 3 TP stagecoach FF. I think it's roughly comparable to a standard France semi with 1 TP (4 CDB 700w 700g or 700g 700w), except that it's about a minute or two slower and lacks falcs without building an artillery foundry. However, where France can maintain this advantage, Dutch gets outscaled after a few more minutes unless they're getting some good trades.

I also agree that people should be using the 4v shipment more often, and it should replace the bank wagon in most builds/matchups on EP maps since you hit your power spike at the same time with 1 less bank but still have the potential to invest in 1 more when you feel it's safe to do so. This is part of the reason the 6 bank change didn't really work out, it just made Dutch a very one dimensional civ that either reaches this point of insanity or dies without a fight.

I think making the banks cheaper and reverting the bank limit would just add some more depth to the civ, and I don't think it will break them either.

[Garja]

For the record each bank is worth 4.6 normal villagers. 4.6 x 4 = 18.4. Now even subtracting the 5v card and counting it as a 6v due to market ups it is still a 12v boom, aka 3 TPs and with comparable xp amount even(unless early TP).
The only reason why it seems not as strong is just because the investment is bigger so it takes more time to start paying off.
If we were to change banks we should also nerf the trickle since the ratio between cost and eco boost is right (even compared to shrines or manors I think). TPs are slightly more efficient now that they cost 200w, so they're the exception.
Also comparing Dutch with French is not really fair since French are by far the most efficient civ early on.

[Mitoe]

It's not really comparable to TPs because other civs also have passive eco buffs in addition to those TPs if they grab them (CDBs, free uhlans, free vills with shipments, etc.)

[momuuu]

4 bank ff barely outgathers a french semi ff while being about a minute slower. It probably wins, barely, but france can freely take all TPs and thats the exact problem. Your only good thing gets annihilated by a civ taking TPs because TPs are better banks in such a scenario.

Against ports, japan and brits its often possible to do a 4 bank FF. Against ports you can actually do pretty well because stagecoach isnt really in their meta, although an ATP build probably annihilates dutch. Japan and british arent really TP civs but they kinda naturally counter dutch.

[[Armag] diarouga]

With port you should do stagecoach vs dutch lol.

[pecelot]

It's easy since you have a free age 1 card. :)

[Garja]

It's not really comparable to TPs because other civs also have passive eco buffs in addition to those TPs if they grab them (CDBs, free uhlans, free vills with shipments, etc.)

Hmm...?
French and Germans hardly have any passive eco buff aside from efficient start and one extra vill on the vill cards.
Other civs that have different meaning of booming (brit, india, jap, etc.) can't really do a TP strat without sacrifing part of the original eco boom.

With port you should do stagecoach vs dutch lol.

You probably should yes, but that's only possible because how ridicolously efficient Ports are now with 80f vills.

[Jaeger]

It's not really comparable to TPs because other civs also have passive eco buffs in addition to those TPs if they grab them (CDBs, free uhlans, free vills with shipments, etc.)

Hmm...?
French and Germans hardly have any passive eco buff aside from efficient start and one extra vill on the vill cards.
Other civs that have different meaning of booming (brit, india, jap, etc.) can't really do a TP strat without sacrifing part of the original eco boom.

With port you should do stagecoach vs dutch lol.

You probably should yes, but that's only possible because how ridicolously efficient Ports are now with 80f vills.

With germany let's say you get 2+2+2+3+3+3+3=18 free uhlans in an average game of 15 minutes. That's more than 1 uhan per minute (including discovery age where it doesn't have any effect) which is 2700 res. But maybe you get 1 shipment less than another civ so let's say 1700 res/15 min is very roughly 2 vills, plus 2 more vills from shipments = 4v eco bonus, while dutch's only bonus of 15% on mines MAYBE makes up for the vills costing coin

[Garja]

I'm pretty sure you don't get so many shipments before 15 minutes. Even with an early TP your 3rd colonial shipment (4th in the game) is ready at 7 min or so which means that the other 4 shipments definetely take more than 8 minutes. If you fight some then yes, you probably have that many shipments before 15 mins, but then again other civs get extra xp and thus extra shipments as well by fighting.
So you can't really make conclusive arguments out of that, except for: 1) German passive bonus is commisurated to the xp penalty, 2) the passive bonus depens a lot on whether they start with a TP or not, and 3) the passive bonus becomes worse (at some point a negative bonus) the longer the game goes.

[Jaeger]

I'm pretty sure you don't get so many shipments before 15 minutes. Even with an early TP your 3rd colonial shipment (4th in the game) is ready at 7 min or so which means that the other 4 shipments definetely take more than 8 minutes. If you fight some then yes, you probably have that many shipments before 15 mins, but then again other civs get extra xp and thus extra shipments as well by fighting.
So you can't really make conclusive arguments out of that, except for: 1) German passive bonus is commisurated to the xp penalty, 2) the passive bonus depends a lot on whether they start with a TP or not, and 3) the passive bonus becomes worse (at some point a negative bonus) the longer the game goes.

If you build a second TP from 700w or from 1k wood you probably have that many, and if you fight before 15 minutes germany has more army than most civs so you probably come off better in the fight which means 1) You kill their units 2) You are the one getting more xp

[Garja]

If your TP gets killed you are getting zero xp from it, meaning you probably won't get that many shipments.
All this just to say that those factors are not conclusive and vary from game to game, let alone are inherent passive bonuses of the civ. If that was the case then no walking time for banks and 1 pop ruyters would be passive bonuses as well (also the fact that those extra ulhans cost you 2 extra houses regardless the fact that you want them or not would be a passive malus).