Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

[momuuu]

What dutch truly needs is a nerf to stagecoach tbh, or more no TP maps. The strongest building in the game does almost nothing for them, thats quite sad.

[Mitoe]

What dutch truly needs is a nerf to stagecoach tbh, or more no TP maps. The strongest building in the game does almost nothing for them, thats quite sad.

Pretty sure if you had an extra vill in age 1 you could grab a TP more easily than you can now

[sirmusket]

Pretty sure Dutch is among the worst civs on RE patch and EP currently, for 1v1 at least. The changes made in the EP made their power spikes a bit stronger but didn't really address any of their core weaknesses. Building a 5th or 6th bank is often not even doable if your opponent plays correctly, and sometimes even if they don't try to punish you too hard you just end up losing anyway because they take so long to pay off. The 20% gather rate cards in age 1 are also just never really worth sending, you always have something better to send.

I think Dutch would be a solid civ with these changes (changes based off of RE patch):

- +1 Villager at the start of the game
- Increase bank build bounty to 140xp
- Buff Tulip Speculation in age 4 from 15% to something like 25% or 30% to improve their mediocre lategame

Pretty sure the bank limit is fine at 4, and the age 1 bank cards (although bad) don't really need to be changed either.

Doubt they'll be any good in the next iteration of the EP though, to be perfectly honest :/

I dont know what to say, im entitled to completely agree with Mitoe here

[sirmusket]

If i had to pick in a spain vs dutch matchup id pick dutch for sure.

true that !

[BrookG]

Dutch' problem is on colonial when they spend so much resources, time included, on banks. They are fairly good on discovery age, scouting and treasure hunt, but after aging other civs build tps, military buildings and secure map, or even FF. Rushes with 10 skirm + 8 pike can be up to a point viable against slow japan start, but eventually they lose against a good player. Their lategame is also hard with not so strong units (see port dragoons, oprichniks, cuirassiers, british longbows etc.)

Tulip speculation needs to be buffed. I guess it is enough, since it's based to mass ruyters and skirms since they have more pop space available.

Fortress age needs 7 ruyter card to 8 ruyter. Also on the base to keep the civ characteristics stable, maybe buff some halb stats like their speed for 4.0 to 4.5, add an area damage or change a bit their multipliers. A proper comparison is doppelsoldner, is much stronger and more cost effective. Also the card Military Reforms needs to be changed not to take away 0.25 vs infantry. (Why is there such a nerf?????)

To fix colonial, maybe intorduce non-veteran halbs and/or xp from bank building or change their cost with dutch east india company like 20 or 30% (or give them an xp trickle?), to have access on more defensive cards, like 8 pikes and 3 huss. Also 5vil card can boost their early economy and quicken their bank built. All nilla civs that have vil cards, i.e. spanish, brits, french, germans, have the 5 vil shipment, german 6, except for otto, which are a completely different issue.

[momuuu]

What dutch truly needs is a nerf to stagecoach tbh, or more no TP maps. The strongest building in the game does almost nothing for them, thats quite sad.

Pretty sure if you had an extra vill in age 1 you could grab a TP more easily than you can now

They could be really strong then maybe. I honestly want dutch to be really strong for once though so I wouldnt care. I dont think theyre going to be great in ep1.2. Maybe the total effect of the bank changes doesnt even touch getting wm age 1 tp instead of an age 2 tp.

[Dsy]

Pretty sure Dutch is among the worst civs on RE patch and EP currently, for 1v1 at least. The changes made in the EP made their power spikes a bit stronger but didn't really address any of their core weaknesses. Building a 5th or 6th bank is often not even doable if your opponent plays correctly, and sometimes even if they don't try to punish you too hard you just end up losing anyway because they take so long to pay off. The 20% gather rate cards in age 1 are also just never really worth sending, you always have something better to send.

I think Dutch would be a solid civ with these changes (changes based off of RE patch):

- +1 Villager at the start of the game
- Increase bank build bounty to 140xp
- Buff Tulip Speculation in age 4 from 15% to something like 25% or 30% to improve their mediocre lategame

Pretty sure the bank limit is fine at 4, and the age 1 bank cards (although bad) don't really need to be changed either.

Doubt they'll be any good in the next iteration of the EP though, to be perfectly honest :/

Yeah its a nice idea.
Maybe advanced church card shoulndt give movement penalty. And rework dutch indian company card like i mentioned 1000 times.

[pecelot]

Well, in the late game they have one of the best skirms in the game with mass ruyters costing 1 population when you have 150 slots for military. Additionally, you have banks to generate coin, which is the resource skirms and ruyters (+ cannons) take the most.

[Mitoe]

Yeah its a nice idea.
Maybe advanced church card shoulndt give movement penalty. And rework dutch indian company card like i mentioned 1000 times.

I just don't think there's any point in changing these cards cause they're not really affecting the civ much at the moment anyway

Also reducing the cost of banks to 300w/300f would be nice, if people aren't open to the +1v thing.

[Dsy]

Yeah its a nice idea.
Maybe advanced church card shoulndt give movement penalty. And rework dutch indian company card like i mentioned 1000 times.

I just don't think there's any point in changing these cards cause they're not really affecting the civ much at the moment anyway

Also reducing the cost of banks to 300w/300f would be nice, if people aren't open to the +1v thing.

Have you read how i mentioned to change that card?
Dutch East India company: Gives you a bank wagon plus discount for banks. Do you think its not effect game?

[momuuu]

Reducing bank cost might almost be a necessity I think to properly fix the civ. Ive been going over this in my mind and feel like that is maybe the actual problem.

[Mitoe]

Have you read how i mentioned to change that card?
Dutch East India company: Gives you a bank wagon plus discount for banks. Do you think its not effect game?

Sure, it would make the card great. It might even make Dutch okay. But the change—in my mind—doesn't really make sense.

[Dsy]

Make an useless card usefull plus it would be good for the game balance too plus its only aviable dutch card witch means its easy to change and understanduble that a trade company requires basicly bank support doesnt make sense?

[Garja]

TWC dutch without broken skirms still sound quite OP. No reason to give them a 7th vill when they can already age with 14-15 no idle and their vills gaher gold at afaster rate.
Bank cost change would be nice if also their gathering rate gets reduced, like 300w 300f for 2.0 trickle. But that's the most radical change. I'm rather sure that with the next patch changes Dutch will be already competitive.

[iNcog]

I don't have patch notes so I can't comment. :/

I don't know what Dutch is going to get next patch, though you could still release the damn thing

[Mitoe]

TWC dutch without broken skirms still sound quite OP. No reason to give them a 7th vill when they can already age with 14-15 no idle and their vills gaher gold at afaster rate.
Bank cost change would be nice if also their gathering rate gets reduced, like 300w 300f for 2.0 trickle. But that's the most radical change. I'm rather sure that with the next patch changes Dutch will be already competitive.

I think with the TP meta other civs are just way stronger than TWC Dutch would have been. I really think +1v is the right change, and I'm pretty sure the suggested changes at the moment will do nothing to improve the performance of the civ.

I think reducing bank cost would be a good alternative, but I don't see why you would reduce the cost of banks and then also nerf their gather rate. That's just counterproductive :/

[momuuu]

My prediction is that dutch is still going to be below average, unless some nerfs turn out bigger than I expect them to be, which they probably wont.

[Garja]

Dutch don't need an eco buff that's why cost reduction alone is not good. A 4 bank eco is essentially like a manor or a shrine boom. Dutch is very like Brits atm, just no musks but fast age and auto up skirms.

[Mitoe]

It's not an eco buff. If anything this their economic potential would be a lot lower with these changes than on the current version of EP, where Dutch is already quite weak.

I don't think they're very similar to Brits to be honest. Brits pay hardly anything for their villagers in comparison to what Dutch are paying. AND they get just as much if not more exp from it too. It's also very easy for Brit to draw the line between booming and massing, as Dutch often lacks the population space in order to make that transition smoothly.

[iNcog]

I notice you guys are discussing this in public forums.

[zoom]

Pretty sure Dutch is among the worst civs on RE patch and EP currently, for 1v1 at least. The changes made in the EP made their power spikes a bit stronger but didn't really address any of their core weaknesses. Building a 5th or 6th bank is often not even doable if your opponent plays correctly, and sometimes even if they don't try to punish you too hard you just end up losing anyway because they take so long to pay off. The 20% gather rate cards in age 1 are also just never really worth sending, you always have something better to send.

I think Dutch would be a solid civ with these changes (changes based off of RE patch):

- +1 Villager at the start of the game
- Increase bank build bounty to 140xp
- Buff Tulip Speculation in age 4 from 15% to something like 25% or 30% to improve their mediocre lategame

Pretty sure the bank limit is fine at 4, and the age 1 bank cards (although bad) don't really need to be changed either.

Doubt they'll be any good in the next iteration of the EP though, to be perfectly honest :/

Pretty sure they would be quite overpowered with these changes. Perhaps adding a wood crate instead of a Settler would be more balanced.

[Atomiswave]

"Currently we are looking at increasing bank build XP bounty, a small buff to fortress age unit shipments and decreasing bank limit from 6 to 5. The discovery age "Bank of Rotterdam" and "Bank of Amsterdam" shipments will be restored to give +1 bank limit."

I would reduce bank cost to 325f/w in conjunction with planned changes.

[momuuu]

Pretty sure Dutch is among the worst civs on RE patch and EP currently, for 1v1 at least. The changes made in the EP made their power spikes a bit stronger but didn't really address any of their core weaknesses. Building a 5th or 6th bank is often not even doable if your opponent plays correctly, and sometimes even if they don't try to punish you too hard you just end up losing anyway because they take so long to pay off. The 20% gather rate cards in age 1 are also just never really worth sending, you always have something better to send.

I think Dutch would be a solid civ with these changes (changes based off of RE patch):

- +1 Villager at the start of the game
- Increase bank build bounty to 140xp
- Buff Tulip Speculation in age 4 from 15% to something like 25% or 30% to improve their mediocre lategame

Pretty sure the bank limit is fine at 4, and the age 1 bank cards (although bad) don't really need to be changed either.

Doubt they'll be any good in the next iteration of the EP though, to be perfectly honest :/

Pretty sure they would be quite overpowered with these changes. Perhaps adding a wood crate instead of a Settler would be more balanced.

-100c ?

[[Armag] diarouga]

They won't be good in 1v1, that's for sure but we don't want to change the "tiers", that's why fre and ger are almost not nerfed.

[Garja]

It's not an eco buff. If anything this their economic potential would be a lot lower with these changes than on the current version of EP, where Dutch is already quite weak.

I don't think they're very similar to Brits to be honest. Brits pay hardly anything for their villagers in comparison to what Dutch are paying. AND they get just as much if not more exp from it too. It's also very easy for Brit to draw the line between booming and massing, as Dutch often lacks the population space in order to make that transition smoothly.

15 manors cost 2160w which is similar to 1400f 1400w. Now, manors give also free pop and vills can be upraded, but banks autogather infinetely without idle time which is just as good. Not to mention 4 banks is actually almost 20 normal villagers (16 for Dutch).
But in any case I wasnt refering to the respective efficiency of the 2 civs but rather the fact that they both age up early, invest a lot in their boom and in return this is stronger than other civs' boom.
About Dutch level, compared to lets say French, the MU is not even broken as people are assuming. Most of times it comes down to the 2 falc shipment rather than anything else.