Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Hey everyone,
Time for another poll! The meta has seen some changes recently and we've all been able to settle into the first EP release a bit which should give us a better picture of where we are at balance-wise.
The previous poll was in October, the results can be viewed here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =889958768
For the lazy: the community voted Germans, Otto and Japan to be strong and Spain, Russia and Sioux to be weak.
The new form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1AAO5uv ... rm?c=0&w=1
Results: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =889958768
Please vote only with 1v1 in mind, we will be addressing team balance problems in the next release but they are outside the scope of this thread.
Curious to see where we land this time
Time for another poll! The meta has seen some changes recently and we've all been able to settle into the first EP release a bit which should give us a better picture of where we are at balance-wise.
The previous poll was in October, the results can be viewed here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =889958768
For the lazy: the community voted Germans, Otto and Japan to be strong and Spain, Russia and Sioux to be weak.
The new form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1AAO5uv ... rm?c=0&w=1
Results: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =889958768
Please vote only with 1v1 in mind, we will be addressing team balance problems in the next release but they are outside the scope of this thread.
Curious to see where we land this time
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- Ninja
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Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Sorry this poll does not contain two dozen irrelevant options, as per newest mod, fightingfrenchman's, orders. Redacted.
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- Ninja
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Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
British at 7 lmao
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Personally think it's pretty close to balanced all around.
This is how I would rate the current state of balance:
French - 8
German - 8
China - 8 (Maybe 8.5 on livestock maps?)
Spanish - 8
Portuguese - 7.5
Japan - 7.1?
Aztec - 7
British - 7
India - 7
Russia - 6.5
Dutch - 6
Iroquois - 5
Haven't played enough, or seen played enough to know:
Otto - ???
Sioux - ???
This is how I would rate the current state of balance:
French - 8
German - 8
China - 8 (Maybe 8.5 on livestock maps?)
Spanish - 8
Portuguese - 7.5
Japan - 7.1?
Aztec - 7
British - 7
India - 7
Russia - 6.5
Dutch - 6
Iroquois - 5
Haven't played enough, or seen played enough to know:
Otto - ???
Sioux - ???
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Adjusted with my numbers.
I think France is a bit further ahead.
Also Spain isn't that strong. China is still a little over rated IMO. Japan a little under rated.
I think France is a bit further ahead.
Also Spain isn't that strong. China is still a little over rated IMO. Japan a little under rated.
Mitoe wrote:Personally think it's pretty close to balanced all around.
This is how I would rate the current state of balance:
French - 8.5
German - 8
China - 7.5
Spanish - 7.5
Portuguese - 7
Japan - 7.5
Aztec - 7
British - 7
India - 7
Russia - 6.5
Dutch - 6
Iroquois - 5
Haven't played enough, or seen played enough to know:
Otto - 7
Sioux - 7.5 (hard to score out of specific map matchup.)
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Balance is close enough that future polls should have 1-5 maybe
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
_H2O wrote:Adjusted with my numbers.
I think France is a bit further ahead.
Also Spain isn't that strong. China is still a little over rated IMO. Japan a little under rated.
Japan's definitely changed a lot for me recently, I'm unsure how to rate them. They seem to be in the right place at the moment. Was tempted to rate them 7.5 but I can't play the civ well enough to figure it out myself.
"Spain isn't that strong" - Yet he rates them top 4 =P
Problem with China is that their strength varies too much depending on how many animals they fatten.
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- Ninja
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Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
I think standard deviation would be an important metric for overall balance, no? Right now, it is 1.20. Not bad :)
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Azzy 7
Brit 7
China 7
Dutch 4
France 9
Ger 8
India 6
Iro 3
Jap 6
Otto 5
Port 7
Russia 5
Sioux 3
Spain 6
Brit 7
China 7
Dutch 4
France 9
Ger 8
India 6
Iro 3
Jap 6
Otto 5
Port 7
Russia 5
Sioux 3
Spain 6
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
wtf why is everyone saying french is better now ?
- fightinfrenchman
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Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
_H2O wrote:Adjusted with my numbers.
I think France is a bit further ahead.
Also Spain isn't that strong. China is still a little over rated IMO. Japan a little under rated.Mitoe wrote:Personally think it's pretty close to balanced all around.
This is how I would rate the current state of balance:
French - 8.5
German - 8
China - 7.5
Spanish - 7.5
Portuguese - 7
Japan - 7.5
Aztec - 7
British - 7
India - 7
Russia - 6.5
Dutch - 6
Iroquois - 5
Haven't played enough, or seen played enough to know:
Otto - 7
Sioux - 7.5 (hard to score out of specific map matchup.)
Why should we care what you think about the balance
Dromedary Scone Mix is not Alone Mix
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
mnogud wrote:wtf why is everyone saying french is better now ?
They were the 2nd best civ after ger, but now, some civs can beat germany because of their weaknesses.
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Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
@mnogud
The old french samwise build is really not that good imo, as france isn't a great age 2 civ and ultimately wants to age to gain access to their entirely shadow tech'd fortress army and make use of their xp gain from early tp in the form of great age 3 shipments. Honestly, I'm starting to concede that Ger is as OP as I initially thought because uhlans aren't really all that great. They still lose to hussar and if you can make Ger player make WW, it is a small victory.
I'm guessing the recent meta shift to TP fortress play. French can early tp, and tp in transition, and take long tp lines. They have a strong eco in cdb's and a great fortress army composition with cuirs. It is almost unanimously French/Ger in the top 2, and reasons why france might come out on top are: their much better age 1 (native scout OP), better ranged cavalry unit (WW suck, goons OP), and cuirs (much better than uhlan and they become shadow-tech'd). In addition, their villagers have higher hp and attack, making raiding less useful and rushes not quite as effective.mnogud wrote:notification
The old french samwise build is really not that good imo, as france isn't a great age 2 civ and ultimately wants to age to gain access to their entirely shadow tech'd fortress army and make use of their xp gain from early tp in the form of great age 3 shipments. Honestly, I'm starting to concede that Ger is as OP as I initially thought because uhlans aren't really all that great. They still lose to hussar and if you can make Ger player make WW, it is a small victory.
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
France has musks, it is quite huge.
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Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
mnogud wrote:wtf why is everyone saying french is better now ?
Yeh it's fun, when the patch was out at first it was just "germany op" without talking about france, then germany and france op, and now germany is still op but people start saying that france is even better... I think we all just draw conclusions too fast about balance. (btw diarouga I've always said people didn't use german weaknesses enough 21)
I'm pretty sure germany with -10 hp uhlans will suck in some match ups though. I think I calculated goons will need 1 less shot to kill a vet uhlan, and this is imo a very big deal. Well maybe with the goon rr nerf it can be fine
I know we'll first see how the balance is before deciding more changes, but I think a ww buff will be needed if germany can't rely on their uhlans to cover skirms anymore. But we'll see
It's really hard to vote imo, but I did sth like that :
French - 9
German - 9
China - 9
Spanish - 7
Portuguese - 7
Japan - 8
Aztec - 8
British - 8
India - 6
Russia - 6
Dutch - 6
Iroquois - 5
Otto - 7
Sioux - 7
I'd rather see it as tier 1 (9) tier 2 (7-8) tier 3(5-6). Not sure at all about sioux though
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Just an ask here guys, but would think guys that RE iro can be quite fine actually ? Because you aren't map screwed on esoc maps and because a lot of civs have moved into a tp meta ?
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Germans were just strong I think because before patch counter-meta builds to beat semi-FFs weren't really good, and Germans will typically beat another semi just because that's their best strat. France however has so much versatility they can typically beat the counter to their builds, which I think has made them the better civ overall in the current meta.
Also people's ratings lol. You are allowed to use numbers below 5 you know? I think EP Iro and Russia can fit comfortably somewhere between 1 and 4.
I'd say we don't really know where India and Japan and the other non-TP civs stand because of how many maps are TP based still, and cascade etc aren't really played in tourney games.
@rikikipu
Also people's ratings lol. You are allowed to use numbers below 5 you know? I think EP Iro and Russia can fit comfortably somewhere between 1 and 4.
I'd say we don't really know where India and Japan and the other non-TP civs stand because of how many maps are TP based still, and cascade etc aren't really played in tourney games.
@rikikipu
depends, it would be more MU dependent I think but the BB rush would still beat alot of civs that lack good age 2 counters without much opportunity to get back in the game.rikikipu wrote:notification
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Meh,
On TP maps
Ger 8.5
France 8.5
China 8.3
Azzy 8.2
Ottomans 7.7
British 7.5
Spain 7.2
Japan 6.9
India 6.7
Russia 6.6
Portuguese 6.6
Sioux 6.6
Iro 6.4
Dutch 6.4
On no TP maps
China 8.3
Azzy 8.2
France 8
Germany 7.8
British 7.5
Ottomans 7.2
Japan 6.9
India 6.7
Russia 6.6
Portuguese 6.4
Dutch 6.4
Sioux 6.3
Iro 6
Nayuki sea civ tier order-
British 9.4
Portuguese 8.8
Japan 8.7
Aztecs 8.2
Ottomans 8
Russia 8
India 7.6
France 7.4
Dutch 7
Spain 7
Germany 6.5
Iro 6
Sioux 5.5
Can somebody pull out list for RE too?
On TP maps
Ger 8.5
France 8.5
China 8.3
Azzy 8.2
Ottomans 7.7
British 7.5
Spain 7.2
Japan 6.9
India 6.7
Russia 6.6
Portuguese 6.6
Sioux 6.6
Iro 6.4
Dutch 6.4
On no TP maps
China 8.3
Azzy 8.2
France 8
Germany 7.8
British 7.5
Ottomans 7.2
Japan 6.9
India 6.7
Russia 6.6
Portuguese 6.4
Dutch 6.4
Sioux 6.3
Iro 6
Nayuki sea civ tier order-
British 9.4
Portuguese 8.8
Japan 8.7
Aztecs 8.2
Ottomans 8
Russia 8
India 7.6
France 7.4
Dutch 7
Spain 7
Germany 6.5
Iro 6
Sioux 5.5
Can somebody pull out list for RE too?
Doing what you like is Freedom...
Liking what you do is Happiness...
Liking what you do is Happiness...
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
10 is too many numbers imo, unless we consider 5 as "average & balanced" or something. I put average and balanced at 7 and then adjusted everything according to that.
France and Germany at 8 point, most civs at 7 points, Japan at least points with 5, some lesser civs at 6 points.
@_DB_
France and Germany at 8 point, most civs at 7 points, Japan at least points with 5, some lesser civs at 6 points.
@_DB_
why do we care about RE?_DB_ wrote:notification
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
forgrin wrote:Also people's ratings lol. You are allowed to use numbers below 5 you know? I think EP Iro and Russia can fit comfortably somewhere between 1 and 4.
This is why a number system (especially 10 point) isn't good for this kind of poll. Should just be a list of options:
Overpowered
Above Average
Average
Below Average
Underpowered
I think we'd get more consistent results this way.
I'd say we don't really know where India and Japan and the other non-TP civs stand because of how many maps are TP based still, and cascade etc aren't really played in tourney games.
Having played India a lot (which are kind of a TP civ in a sense, btw), they kinda just have problems dealing with strong semi-FFs. India is really slow in general, with one of the slowest age times in the game. This, combined with an aggressive build that's honestly not that hard to counter on any map with decent resources in your base and a mediocre FF and semi-FF, they just underperform.
Rikikipu wrote:Just an ask here guys, but would think guys that RE iro can be quite fine actually ? Because you aren't map screwed on esoc maps and because a lot of civs have moved into a tp meta ?
I said this before in the EP forums—don't think anyone paid any attention to it—but I think if Iro was essentially the same as RE, but you changed the fast age politician to the 2nd age from a travois to a discovery travois (the same travois you get at the beginning—it can't build warhuts or anything like that), I think they would be a perfectly fine civ.
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
iNcog wrote:@_DB_why do we care about RE?_DB_ wrote:notification
wanna see difference in points of civ of diarouga RE list and diarouga EP list
Doing what you like is Freedom...
Liking what you do is Happiness...
Liking what you do is Happiness...
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
I also think by the way that Japan is overrated by these results, Iroq underrated.
Japan is way too high.
I want to play the game more, but it's always such a hassle to get a game going, unlike SC where you just click a button and bam you get a game.
Japan is way too high.
I want to play the game more, but it's always such a hassle to get a game going, unlike SC where you just click a button and bam you get a game.
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Oh I think I misinterpreted the scale so I made it truly go to ten. Well germany and france are really OP compared to iro or iro has to be UP.
Germany 10
France 9.5
Aztec 8.5
China 8.5
British 8
Portuguese 7
Japan 7
India 6.5
Spain 6
Dutch 4
Russia 4
Sioux 4
Iro 3
Otto undefined
Germany 10
France 9.5
Aztec 8.5
China 8.5
British 8
Portuguese 7
Japan 7
India 6.5
Spain 6
Dutch 4
Russia 4
Sioux 4
Iro 3
Otto undefined
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
People don't understand the poll, 13/14 civs over 5 points...13 civs are better than the average?
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
mnogud wrote:wtf why is everyone saying french is better now ?
It's the Irish disease...
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