did you catch the few guys that apperantly think france is UP too?Goodspeed wrote:Jokes on them, this poll won't be used to base balance changes on.[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yes, I think people don't vote for the best civ but for the civ they would want to be nerfed.
But still can we stop with the BS answers? Just had to remove like 10 responses from some retard who single handedly got China in 5th by voting 1 for them and 6+ for everything else.
Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
gibson wrote:Beating players who you out class proves nothing because you can use an inferior strat and still win.....
Every game I play is vs inferior players. I can tell what is good and what is not from these games.
That arguemwnt basically disqualifies any game I play from being used for balance. There are games in there vs people who are over pr 35
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Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
_H2O wrote:Dsy wrote:Lancer doesnt work vs a good otto player. German destroy you. Azzi play second age? wtf. French destroy you.
And if you dont scout rush dont complain you lose your tps. If dont scout a rush you can even lose a game. Its a huge mistake.
You are like 2 months of me playing Spain out of date.
All the games lost were either fast resigns or I could have won for sure.
The loss to prince I was playing garbage IMO. The loss to heroes I thought I could win even if he had water in colonial. Turns out if I just aged at the right time instead of trolling I would win that one too.
Lots of easy wins in here but also some vs good players. Enough to say Spain isn't as bad as you think they are. Also I never once all in played any of these games.
Also remember many of the games I got non ideal maps too. spain is not OP but they are an upper class civ IMO.
Spain beats: hapan, India, China, Russia, Otto, Iro, suiox, Dutch
Close : Aztec(Spain might win), German, port on patch, Brit
Lose: France
Vs azzy you should ff though.
I don't think their atp build beats japan, and I can't see it working vs india, or you meant their ff?
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Jerom wrote:did you catch the few guys that apperantly think france is UP too?Goodspeed wrote:Jokes on them, this poll won't be used to base balance changes on.[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yes, I think people don't vote for the best civ but for the civ they would want to be nerfed.
But still can we stop with the BS answers? Just had to remove like 10 responses from some retard who single handedly got China in 5th by voting 1 for them and 6+ for everything else.
Of course not. Goodspeed only removes answers which are inconvenient to him.
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
_H2O wrote:gibson wrote:Beating players who you out class proves nothing because you can use an inferior strat and still win.....
Every game I play is vs inferior players. I can tell what is good and what is not from these games.
That arguemwnt basically disqualifies any game I play from being used for balance. There are games in there vs people who are over pr 35
Except vs Blackstar and Garja.
I think the skill gap in itself shouldn't be an obstacle as far as telling how one BO compares to another, unless of course you are playing people who are so bad they do terrible builds or lose immediately.
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
exactly imo.....There's a large enough skill gap between you and every other active player atm that I don't think any conclusions can be drawn from games you play....i won't believe it's good til I see the diarouga/prince level players beating each other with it_H2O wrote:gibson wrote:Beating players who you out class proves nothing because you can use an inferior strat and still win.....
Every game I play is vs inferior players. I can tell what is good and what is not from these games.
That arguemwnt basically disqualifies any game I play from being used for balance. There are games in there vs people who are over pr 35
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Well, the point is that even if he is on average more or less better, he can still observe how well certain civilizations and builds perform, relative to eachother.
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
zoom wrote:Well, the point is that even if he is on average more or less better, he can still observe how well certain civilizations and builds perform, relative to eachother.
Yea but you can't see how well they perform unless both players are similar level lol. They don't have to be exactly the same but same tier at least..... And I think the tourney sort of showed that no one was really at his level..... Raphael debatable but he isn't even active any more......Point is Spain has traditionally always been a bad civ and Mancl beating players who aren't in the same tier as him shouldn't change that. I mean he is capable of beating just about any active player in any mu, not because every single mu is balanced but because of his skill level.
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
The point isn't seeing how well they perform; it's seeing how well they perform compared to another civilization or build-order. It is still possible to tell which does better, unless of course you are playing people who are so bad they do terrible builds or lose immediately (to repeat myself).
In the end it's hardy optimal, but it is by no means meaningless.
In the end it's hardy optimal, but it is by no means meaningless.
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Okay than let's look at it from a purely objective standpoint. 90% of the games are again below pr 32 so those shouldn't count. He lost several times to sommpu, Prince and heroes. Sommpu and heroes are both much worse than him and Prince, while better than sommpu and heroes, is still not his level. Bad build unless the conditions are completely optimal for it. But than again any build can be good if the conditions for it are optimal.
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
gibson wrote:zoom wrote:Well, the point is that even if he is on average more or less better, he can still observe how well certain civilizations and builds perform, relative to eachother.
Yea but you can't see how well they perform unless both players are similar level lol. They don't have to be exactly the same but same tier at least..... And I think the tourney sort of showed that no one was really at his level..... Raphael debatable but he isn't even active any more......Point is Spain has traditionally always been a bad civ and Mancl beating players who aren't in the same tier as him shouldn't change that. I mean he is capable of beating just about any active player in any mu, not because every single mu is balanced but because of his skill level.
Not really, for example he would lose on RE port vs france and stuff like that.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
ovi12 wrote:gibson wrote:zoom wrote:Well, the point is that even if he is on average more or less better, he can still observe how well certain civilizations and builds perform, relative to eachother.
Yea but you can't see how well they perform unless both players are similar level lol. They don't have to be exactly the same but same tier at least..... And I think the tourney sort of showed that no one was really at his level..... Raphael debatable but he isn't even active any more......Point is Spain has traditionally always been a bad civ and Mancl beating players who aren't in the same tier as him shouldn't change that. I mean he is capable of beating just about any active player in any mu, not because every single mu is balanced but because of his skill level.
Not really, for example he would lose on RE port vs france and stuff like that.
Um he would beat your French with re port 10/10 times
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
gibson wrote:ovi12 wrote:Show hidden quotes
Not really, for example he would lose on RE port vs france and stuff like that.
Um he would beat your French with re port 10/10 times
LOL what does it have to do anything with my french? I'm just saying he can't win with any build vs any player.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Yes but they didn't vote 10 times so I didn't remove both. In the case of the guy putting 1 for Chinese intent was obvious.Jerom wrote:did you catch the few guys that apperantly think france is UP too?Goodspeed wrote:Jokes on them, this poll won't be used to base balance changes on.[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yes, I think people don't vote for the best civ but for the civ they would want to be nerfed.
But still can we stop with the BS answers? Just had to remove like 10 responses from some retard who single handedly got China in 5th by voting 1 for them and 6+ for everything else.
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
At the Spain argument: in the end it's just a numbers game. If Ryan can raise an army with Spain at Y minutes which can compete with the army he can get out with France at Y minutes he can conclude Spain is decent.
I do agree with @gibson
I do agree with @gibson
that Ryan's games against other players don't mean much by themselves given the skill difference, especially since he was playing a build that is outside the meta and people may not have adapted to properly. ATP builds are unique and have to be countered in a unique way which many players would probably only do if they saw it coming.gibson wrote:notification
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
I just put 5 for all the civ changes I haven't tested yet >.<
Jerom wrote: Garja is a better player than most of us here
Jerom wrote:Please don't bump old threads, especially when all you have to say is "lol"
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
from what I saw from the build ryan did kinda have to outplay his opponents pretty severely to win as much with it as he did. But it definitely doesn't seem that weak. I can't imagine spain actually being a weak civ, to be honest.
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
Goodspeed wrote:At the Spain argument: in the end it's just a numbers game. If Ryan can raise an army with Spain at Y minutes which can compete with the army he can get out with France at Y minutes he can conclude Spain is decent.
I do agree with @gibsonthat Ryan's games against other players don't mean much by themselves given the skill difference, especially since he was playing a build that is outside the meta and people may not have adapted to properly. ATP builds are unique and have to be countered in a unique way which many players would probably only do if they saw it coming.gibson wrote:notification
Come and show us how to counter it.
Jerom wrote: Garja is a better player than most of us here
Jerom wrote:Please don't bump old threads, especially when all you have to say is "lol"
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
I can't help you there, but try building 2+ TPs of your own. I'm not saying the build is bad though, just that a couple of wins are no reason to suddenly consider Spain a tier 1 or tier 2 civ. That kind of bandwagon thinking is what will lead us to an unbalanced patch.
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
#plsnerfstagecoach
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
It takes those guys more time and discussion to learn the nuances of why Spain is now way better than before. I think diarouga Kaiser already spent a day to figure out Spain does quite okay vs German.
They also have to spam the games too. It won't be immediately obvious how good Spain is as these guys are better with the current meta Civs. I was the same way I just have had Spain experience before and spammed about 50 games. It should be easier to follow with all the streams I did of the build and choices.
They also have to spam the games too. It won't be immediately obvious how good Spain is as these guys are better with the current meta Civs. I was the same way I just have had Spain experience before and spammed about 50 games. It should be easier to follow with all the streams I did of the build and choices.
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
hunter wrote:Goodspeed wrote:At the Spain argument: in the end it's just a numbers game. If Ryan can raise an army with Spain at Y minutes which can compete with the army he can get out with France at Y minutes he can conclude Spain is decent.
I do agree with @gibsonthat Ryan's games against other players don't mean much by themselves given the skill difference, especially since he was playing a build that is outside the meta and people may not have adapted to properly. ATP builds are unique and have to be countered in a unique way which many players would probably only do if they saw it coming.gibson wrote:notification
Come and show us how to counter it.
Only Virginia company, tower of victory, and FI incoming! I love goodspeed but he doesn't play the game enough or care enough to update all the theory. (I know mart knows that those builds are troll I'm joking).
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Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
_H2O wrote:It takes those guys more time and discussion to learn the nuances of why Spain is now way better than before. I think diarouga Kaiser already spent a day to figure out Spain does quite okay vs German.
They also have to spam the games too. It won't be immediately obvious how good Spain is as these guys are better with the current meta Civs. I was the same way I just have had Spain experience before and spammed about 50 games. It should be easier to follow with all the streams I did of the build and choices.
Tbh I always knew and said that ger vs spain was a pretty fair match up. But whenever I say a civ can beat ger people flame so...
People will just maybe realize one day that germany can actually be pressured in colo, and that the best way to lose vs ger is to let them age 3 unharmed
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
On tad it is not fair at all. Thing is Spain have rods and Germans don't have musks or goons so unit wise they have a chance.
But the 400w, 8bows, fast age and skirm cards still is too much gap.
But the 400w, 8bows, fast age and skirm cards still is too much gap.
Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)
I could barely beat Umeu's Spain with Germany when he was still active. I even lost a couple.
I played 4-5 games against H2O's Spain and couldn't win as Germany—the indisputably best civ according to this poll—if that tells you anything. Yes, you can argue that Spain in terms of design just does inherently well vs Germany, but I can't see any other civs having an easy time competing with it either.
I love how people don't respect H2O's opinions on the game because he's "too good" or something like that, and then say other people's opinions don't matter because they're not as good as someone like H2O XD
I played 4-5 games against H2O's Spain and couldn't win as Germany—the indisputably best civ according to this poll—if that tells you anything. Yes, you can argue that Spain in terms of design just does inherently well vs Germany, but I can't see any other civs having an easy time competing with it either.
I love how people don't respect H2O's opinions on the game because he's "too good" or something like that, and then say other people's opinions don't matter because they're not as good as someone like H2O XD
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