Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by momuuu »

Goodspeed wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yes, I think people don't vote for the best civ but for the civ they would want to be nerfed.
Jokes on them, this poll won't be used to base balance changes on.

But still can we stop with the BS answers? Just had to remove like 10 responses from some retard who single handedly got China in 5th by voting 1 for them and 6+ for everything else.
did you catch the few guys that apperantly think france is UP too?
User avatar
United States of America _H2O
ESOC Business Team
Donator 06
Posts: 3409
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
ESO: _H2O

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by _H2O »

gibson wrote:Beating players who you out class proves nothing because you can use an inferior strat and still win.....


Every game I play is vs inferior players. I can tell what is good and what is not from these games.

That arguemwnt basically disqualifies any game I play from being used for balance. There are games in there vs people who are over pr 35
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

_H2O wrote:
Dsy wrote:Lancer doesnt work vs a good otto player. German destroy you. Azzi play second age? wtf. French destroy you.

And if you dont scout rush dont complain you lose your tps. If dont scout a rush you can even lose a game. Its a huge mistake.


You are like 2 months of me playing Spain out of date.

All the games lost were either fast resigns or I could have won for sure.

The loss to prince I was playing garbage IMO. The loss to heroes I thought I could win even if he had water in colonial. Turns out if I just aged at the right time instead of trolling I would win that one too.

Lots of easy wins in here but also some vs good players. Enough to say Spain isn't as bad as you think they are. Also I never once all in played any of these games.

Also remember many of the games I got non ideal maps too. spain is not OP but they are an upper class civ IMO.

Spain beats: hapan, India, China, Russia, Otto, Iro, suiox, Dutch

Close : Aztec(Spain might win), German, port on patch, Brit

Lose: France

Vs azzy you should ff though.
I don't think their atp build beats japan, and I can't see it working vs india, or you meant their ff?
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by zoom »

Jerom wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yes, I think people don't vote for the best civ but for the civ they would want to be nerfed.
Jokes on them, this poll won't be used to base balance changes on.

But still can we stop with the BS answers? Just had to remove like 10 responses from some retard who single handedly got China in 5th by voting 1 for them and 6+ for everything else.
did you catch the few guys that apperantly think france is UP too?

Of course not. Goodspeed only removes answers which are inconvenient to him.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by zoom »

_H2O wrote:
gibson wrote:Beating players who you out class proves nothing because you can use an inferior strat and still win.....


Every game I play is vs inferior players. I can tell what is good and what is not from these games.

That arguemwnt basically disqualifies any game I play from being used for balance. There are games in there vs people who are over pr 35

Except vs Blackstar and Garja.

I think the skill gap in itself shouldn't be an obstacle as far as telling how one BO compares to another, unless of course you are playing people who are so bad they do terrible builds or lose immediately.
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by gibson »

_H2O wrote:
gibson wrote:Beating players who you out class proves nothing because you can use an inferior strat and still win.....


Every game I play is vs inferior players. I can tell what is good and what is not from these games.

That arguemwnt basically disqualifies any game I play from being used for balance. There are games in there vs people who are over pr 35
exactly imo.....There's a large enough skill gap between you and every other active player atm that I don't think any conclusions can be drawn from games you play....i won't believe it's good til I see the diarouga/prince level players beating each other with it
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by zoom »

Well, the point is that even if he is on average more or less better, he can still observe how well certain civilizations and builds perform, relative to eachother.
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by gibson »

zoom wrote:Well, the point is that even if he is on average more or less better, he can still observe how well certain civilizations and builds perform, relative to eachother.

Yea but you can't see how well they perform unless both players are similar level lol. They don't have to be exactly the same but same tier at least..... And I think the tourney sort of showed that no one was really at his level..... Raphael debatable but he isn't even active any more......Point is Spain has traditionally always been a bad civ and Mancl beating players who aren't in the same tier as him shouldn't change that. I mean he is capable of beating just about any active player in any mu, not because every single mu is balanced but because of his skill level.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by zoom »

The point isn't seeing how well they perform; it's seeing how well they perform compared to another civilization or build-order. It is still possible to tell which does better, unless of course you are playing people who are so bad they do terrible builds or lose immediately (to repeat myself).

In the end it's hardy optimal, but it is by no means meaningless.
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by gibson »

Okay than let's look at it from a purely objective standpoint. 90% of the games are again below pr 32 so those shouldn't count. He lost several times to sommpu, Prince and heroes. Sommpu and heroes are both much worse than him and Prince, while better than sommpu and heroes, is still not his level. Bad build unless the conditions are completely optimal for it. But than again any build can be good if the conditions for it are optimal.
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by Jaeger »

gibson wrote:
zoom wrote:Well, the point is that even if he is on average more or less better, he can still observe how well certain civilizations and builds perform, relative to eachother.

Yea but you can't see how well they perform unless both players are similar level lol. They don't have to be exactly the same but same tier at least..... And I think the tourney sort of showed that no one was really at his level..... Raphael debatable but he isn't even active any more......Point is Spain has traditionally always been a bad civ and Mancl beating players who aren't in the same tier as him shouldn't change that. I mean he is capable of beating just about any active player in any mu, not because every single mu is balanced but because of his skill level.

Not really, for example he would lose on RE port vs france and stuff like that.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by gibson »

ovi12 wrote:
gibson wrote:
zoom wrote:Well, the point is that even if he is on average more or less better, he can still observe how well certain civilizations and builds perform, relative to eachother.

Yea but you can't see how well they perform unless both players are similar level lol. They don't have to be exactly the same but same tier at least..... And I think the tourney sort of showed that no one was really at his level..... Raphael debatable but he isn't even active any more......Point is Spain has traditionally always been a bad civ and Mancl beating players who aren't in the same tier as him shouldn't change that. I mean he is capable of beating just about any active player in any mu, not because every single mu is balanced but because of his skill level.

Not really, for example he would lose on RE port vs france and stuff like that.

Um he would beat your French with re port 10/10 times
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by Jaeger »

gibson wrote:
ovi12 wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Not really, for example he would lose on RE port vs france and stuff like that.

Um he would beat your French with re port 10/10 times

LOL what does it have to do anything with my french? I'm just saying he can't win with any build vs any player.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by Goodspeed »

Jerom wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yes, I think people don't vote for the best civ but for the civ they would want to be nerfed.
Jokes on them, this poll won't be used to base balance changes on.

But still can we stop with the BS answers? Just had to remove like 10 responses from some retard who single handedly got China in 5th by voting 1 for them and 6+ for everything else.
did you catch the few guys that apperantly think france is UP too?
Yes but they didn't vote 10 times so I didn't remove both. In the case of the guy putting 1 for Chinese intent was obvious.
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by Goodspeed »

At the Spain argument: in the end it's just a numbers game. If Ryan can raise an army with Spain at Y minutes which can compete with the army he can get out with France at Y minutes he can conclude Spain is decent.

I do agree with @gibson that Ryan's games against other players don't mean much by themselves given the skill difference, especially since he was playing a build that is outside the meta and people may not have adapted to properly. ATP builds are unique and have to be countered in a unique way which many players would probably only do if they saw it coming.
User avatar
No Flag hunter
Dragoon
Posts: 456
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
Location: Rome, S.P.Q.R

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by hunter »

I just put 5 for all the civ changes I haven't tested yet >.<
Jerom wrote: Garja is a better player than most of us here
Jerom wrote:Please don't bump old threads, especially when all you have to say is "lol"
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by momuuu »

from what I saw from the build ryan did kinda have to outplay his opponents pretty severely to win as much with it as he did. But it definitely doesn't seem that weak. I can't imagine spain actually being a weak civ, to be honest.
User avatar
No Flag hunter
Dragoon
Posts: 456
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
Location: Rome, S.P.Q.R

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by hunter »

Goodspeed wrote:At the Spain argument: in the end it's just a numbers game. If Ryan can raise an army with Spain at Y minutes which can compete with the army he can get out with France at Y minutes he can conclude Spain is decent.

I do agree with @gibson that Ryan's games against other players don't mean much by themselves given the skill difference, especially since he was playing a build that is outside the meta and people may not have adapted to properly. ATP builds are unique and have to be countered in a unique way which many players would probably only do if they saw it coming.

Come and show us how to counter it.
Jerom wrote: Garja is a better player than most of us here
Jerom wrote:Please don't bump old threads, especially when all you have to say is "lol"
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by Goodspeed »

I can't help you there, but try building 2+ TPs of your own. I'm not saying the build is bad though, just that a couple of wins are no reason to suddenly consider Spain a tier 1 or tier 2 civ. That kind of bandwagon thinking is what will lead us to an unbalanced patch.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by momuuu »

#plsnerfstagecoach
User avatar
United States of America _H2O
ESOC Business Team
Donator 06
Posts: 3409
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
ESO: _H2O

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by _H2O »

It takes those guys more time and discussion to learn the nuances of why Spain is now way better than before. I think diarouga Kaiser already spent a day to figure out Spain does quite okay vs German.

They also have to spam the games too. It won't be immediately obvious how good Spain is as these guys are better with the current meta Civs. I was the same way I just have had Spain experience before and spammed about 50 games. It should be easier to follow with all the streams I did of the build and choices.
User avatar
United States of America _H2O
ESOC Business Team
Donator 06
Posts: 3409
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
ESO: _H2O

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by _H2O »

hunter wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:At the Spain argument: in the end it's just a numbers game. If Ryan can raise an army with Spain at Y minutes which can compete with the army he can get out with France at Y minutes he can conclude Spain is decent.

I do agree with @gibson that Ryan's games against other players don't mean much by themselves given the skill difference, especially since he was playing a build that is outside the meta and people may not have adapted to properly. ATP builds are unique and have to be countered in a unique way which many players would probably only do if they saw it coming.

Come and show us how to counter it.


Only Virginia company, tower of victory, and FI incoming! :D I love goodspeed but he doesn't play the game enough or care enough to update all the theory. (I know mart knows that those builds are troll I'm joking).
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by Kaiserklein »

_H2O wrote:It takes those guys more time and discussion to learn the nuances of why Spain is now way better than before. I think diarouga Kaiser already spent a day to figure out Spain does quite okay vs German.

They also have to spam the games too. It won't be immediately obvious how good Spain is as these guys are better with the current meta Civs. I was the same way I just have had Spain experience before and spammed about 50 games. It should be easier to follow with all the streams I did of the build and choices.

Tbh I always knew and said that ger vs spain was a pretty fair match up. But whenever I say a civ can beat ger people flame so...
People will just maybe realize one day that germany can actually be pressured in colo, and that the best way to lose vs ger is to let them age 3 unharmed
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by Garja »

On tad it is not fair at all. Thing is Spain have rods and Germans don't have musks or goons so unit wise they have a chance.
But the 400w, 8bows, fast age and skirm cards still is too much gap.
Image Image Image
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Poll: EP state of balance (1v1)

Post by Mitoe »

I could barely beat Umeu's Spain with Germany when he was still active. I even lost a couple.

I played 4-5 games against H2O's Spain and couldn't win as Germany—the indisputably best civ according to this poll—if that tells you anything. Yes, you can argue that Spain in terms of design just does inherently well vs Germany, but I can't see any other civs having an easy time competing with it either.

I love how people don't respect H2O's opinions on the game because he's "too good" or something like that, and then say other people's opinions don't matter because they're not as good as someone like H2O XD

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV