Remove shooting ability of docks

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Hungary Dsy
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by Dsy »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
Dsy wrote:And if the opponent even send them garrison he wont lose eco, cause he has same amount of vills on land. But read back guys, i dont want repeat myself million times. ->> Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:15 pm ->> read

????

'Garrisoning villagers (boats) won't deteriorate your economy'


Its deteriorate.
But if you think about it more you will see building a dock +10 bats equal with building a dock + 1 frigate, And you cant kill the dock.
All this mean equal deteriorate both side (you spent same resources on water). But you lose basicly more (frigate player) cause boats starts early gathering their price back.
But the most important fact if you start naval war vs fish boom effect the time will be delayed. It means if the matchup boomy civ vs nonboomy, the boomy won the game easy in this case.

These are simply facts i wrote alrady once down.
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by farran34 »

Dsy wrote:Its deteriorate.
But if you think about it more you will see building a dock +10 bats equal with building a dock + 1 frigate, And you cant kill the dock.
All this mean equal deteriorate both side (you spent same resources on water). But you lose basicly more (frigate player) cause boats starts early gathering their price back.

These are simply facts i wrote alrady once down.

Or you can simply contain the water and not let the fishing boats gather...? You don't have to kamikaze attack the docks lol, just don't let the fishing boats gather outside the few fish near the docks (and even there you can hit run them to not allow much gathering) and eventually win with a greater land eco.
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Hungary Dsy
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by Dsy »

farran34 wrote:
Dsy wrote:Its deteriorate.
But if you think about it more you will see building a dock +10 bats equal with building a dock + 1 frigate, And you cant kill the dock.
All this mean equal deteriorate both side (you spent same resources on water). But you lose basicly more (frigate player) cause boats starts early gathering their price back.

These are simply facts i wrote alrady once down.

Or you can simply contain the water and not let the fishing boats gather...? You don't have to kamikaze attack the docks lol, just don't let the fishing boats gather outside the few fish near the docks (and even there you can hit run them to not allow much gathering) and eventually win with a greater land eco.


Even if they dont gather anything you spent same amount of resources for warships omg. All this means you dont win anything with this tactic.
Just think abouat it again: i make a dock and instantly send 10 fishing ships to garrison 1200w, you make a dock build a frigate 1200w/c and we dont do anything. Noone wins with it only the time delay.
But thats the most ideal case when ships dont start gather earlier but instantly send them to garrison which is kinda not realistic case. Its the best and you still dont win anything vs it with naval contest.
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Poland pecelot
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by pecelot »

but it's the status quo you're interested in as you've just denied the water by forcing the fishing ships to garrison into the docks?
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by adderbrain5 »

Dsy wrote:I think it is the one reason in the current meta why waterplay unbalanced. With scooners you can make lot of boats and once you running them into docks dock get 15damage/boats with 32 attacking range. (with 20 boats 300 damage, dock has 2500 health)
Its unfair vs a civ who cant really make boats(has no schooner card) cause you basicly cant go close to docks cause you get a lot of damage. It means scooner civ can be agressive and any time when warship run low health can run back for healing. If you health drop with no boat civ he can follow you until your ship is destroyed. Its simply unfair.

again the true supporters of AOE3 in all its purity confront our greatest foe; the mishapened idea that all civs should be created equal on all maps...i think it is perfectly well and good that a civ like sioux has a hard time and has to get mighty creative when confonrting portuguese on a water map.... what is wrong with that... sometimes you have to pick your battles, and the battle begins in civ selection.

you wouldn't take a sword to a gunfight and then reclaim that the sword wasn't long enough would you?

but i guess i forgot that we are on an E-sport forum and not one for strategy games
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by farran34 »

Dsy wrote:
farran34 wrote:
Dsy wrote:Its deteriorate.
But if you think about it more you will see building a dock +10 bats equal with building a dock + 1 frigate, And you cant kill the dock.
All this mean equal deteriorate both side (you spent same resources on water). But you lose basicly more (frigate player) cause boats starts early gathering their price back.

These are simply facts i wrote alrady once down.

Or you can simply contain the water and not let the fishing boats gather...? You don't have to kamikaze attack the docks lol, just don't let the fishing boats gather outside the few fish near the docks (and even there you can hit run them to not allow much gathering) and eventually win with a greater land eco.


Even if they dont gather anything you spent same amount of resources for warships omg. All this means you dont win anything with this tactic.
Just think abouat it again: i make a dock and instantly send 10 fishing ships to garrison 1200w, you make a dock build a frigate 1200w/c and we dont do anything. Noone wins with it only the time delay.
But thats the most ideal case when ships dont start gather earlier but instantly send them to garrison which is kinda not realistic case. Its the best and you still dont win anything vs it with naval contest.

You are forgetting that they also didn't send 3 villagers which pays off much more for the land player than 10 boats which are mostly in a dock not gathering. If the land player is France lets say, and goes 3 vill 700wd 2 caravel, he will have 3-4 caravels when the opponent most likely has at most 2 caravels (from card) + a dock to defend (unless they are starting caravels too, which case they will not have 10 boats). If you properly micro you can take 1-2 of the caravels down of the opponent without losing any, while idling their boats which is a win I would say.
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Hungary Dsy
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by Dsy »

farran34 wrote:
Dsy wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Even if they dont gather anything you spent same amount of resources for warships omg. All this means you dont win anything with this tactic.
Just think abouat it again: i make a dock and instantly send 10 fishing ships to garrison 1200w, you make a dock build a frigate 1200w/c and we dont do anything. Noone wins with it only the time delay.
But thats the most ideal case when ships dont start gather earlier but instantly send them to garrison which is kinda not realistic case. Its the best and you still dont win anything vs it with naval contest.

You are forgetting that they also didn't send 3 villagers which pays off much more for the land player than 10 boats which are mostly in a dock not gathering. If the land player is France lets say, and goes 3 vill 700wd 2 caravel, he will have 3-4 caravels when the opponent most likely has at most 2 caravels (from card) + a dock to defend (unless they are starting caravels too, which case they will not have 10 boats). If you properly micro you can take 1-2 of the caravels down of the opponent without losing any, while idling their boats which is a win I would say.


Lol. I make 2 docks 20 ships which is 1200 resources with schooner card. Plus they gather back kinda 200 until i have to send them garrison.
You send 700w build 2 caravel 1500 resources you spent and you cant come close to docks. (and you need 2 docks if you want be competitive water)

This means you are down 500w/c resources but has 3 vills.

No way you can contest water on water. Only if you schooners too. Thats why you never seen H2O go full naval vs water. Dia even said ff tp full land. They just realised go naval vs fishboom is a loosing strat in the beginning.
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by farran34 »

Dsy wrote:
Lol. I make 2 docks 20 ships which is 1200 resources with schooner card. Plus they gather back kinda 200 until i have to send them garrison.
You send 700w build 2 caravel 1500 resources you spent and you cant come close to docks. (and you need 2 docks if you want be competitive water)

This means you are down 500w/c resources but has 3 vills.

No way you can contest water on water. Only if you schooners too. Thats why you never seen H2O go full naval vs water. Dia even said ff tp full land. They just realised go naval vs fishboom is a loosing strat in the beginning.


It depends on the mu and map but contesting the water early can work. If you make 20 ships with 2 docks and I have 4 caravel, you are gonna lose your docks lol. 4 caravel can take a dock down pretty fast, and I just run the caravel on low hp back to my dock to regain hp. 2 docks + 2 caravels might be able to hold out, but you will lose your 2 caravel and if I micro perfect I probably won't lose anything.

Even if I eventually lose the water fight, fighting the water early on can be very strong. If I send 3 vill 700wd 4 vill 600wd/700gd (depends if want to age early or not) I can force you to hide in your docks not gathering for some period of time, while I am getting a strong land eco and aging behind it. Your boom is slowed much more than mine this way, at least it seems like it to me.

Full land boom with tps can also work very well, and perhaps is even better, but that doesn't mean that it isn't viable to fight the water early on. Also you never see h20 fighting water vs water because it is not his style and also the esoc maps favor land boom over water boom.
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by KINGofOsmane »

farran34 wrote:
Dsy wrote:
Lol. I make 2 docks 20 ships which is 1200 resources with schooner card. Plus they gather back kinda 200 until i have to send them garrison.
You send 700w build 2 caravel 1500 resources you spent and you cant come close to docks. (and you need 2 docks if you want be competitive water)

This means you are down 500w/c resources but has 3 vills.

No way you can contest water on water. Only if you schooners too. Thats why you never seen H2O go full naval vs water. Dia even said ff tp full land. They just realised go naval vs fishboom is a loosing strat in the beginning.


It depends on the mu and map but contesting the water early can work. If you make 20 ships with 2 docks and I have 4 caravel, you are gonna lose your docks lol. 4 caravel can take a dock down pretty fast, and I just run the caravel on low hp back to my dock to regain hp. 2 docks + 2 caravels might be able to hold out, but you will lose your 2 caravel and if I micro perfect I probably won't lose anything.

Even if I eventually lose the water fight, fighting the water early on can be very strong. If I send 3 vill 700wd 4 vill 600wd/700gd (depends if want to age early or not) I can force you to hide in your docks not gathering for some period of time, while I am getting a strong land eco and aging behind it. Your boom is slowed much more than mine this way, at least it seems like it to me.

Full land boom with tps can also work very well, and perhaps is even better, but that doesn't mean that it isn't viable to fight the water early on. Also you never see h20 fighting water vs water because it is not his style and also the esoc maps favor land boom over water boom.

remove farran what the hell are you doing??
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Well, you don't want to siege the dock, just poke his boats and prevent him from gathering.
Sieging the TC is not worth you know, still going full vill isn't viable.
Sending the freagate to poke is definitely worth.
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by farran34 »

KINGofOsmane wrote:
farran34 wrote:
Dsy wrote:
Lol. I make 2 docks 20 ships which is 1200 resources with schooner card. Plus they gather back kinda 200 until i have to send them garrison.
You send 700w build 2 caravel 1500 resources you spent and you cant come close to docks. (and you need 2 docks if you want be competitive water)

This means you are down 500w/c resources but has 3 vills.

No way you can contest water on water. Only if you schooners too. Thats why you never seen H2O go full naval vs water. Dia even said ff tp full land. They just realised go naval vs fishboom is a loosing strat in the beginning.


It depends on the mu and map but contesting the water early can work. If you make 20 ships with 2 docks and I have 4 caravel, you are gonna lose your docks lol. 4 caravel can take a dock down pretty fast, and I just run the caravel on low hp back to my dock to regain hp. 2 docks + 2 caravels might be able to hold out, but you will lose your 2 caravel and if I micro perfect I probably won't lose anything.

Even if I eventually lose the water fight, fighting the water early on can be very strong. If I send 3 vill 700wd 4 vill 600wd/700gd (depends if want to age early or not) I can force you to hide in your docks not gathering for some period of time, while I am getting a strong land eco and aging behind it. Your boom is slowed much more than mine this way, at least it seems like it to me.

Full land boom with tps can also work very well, and perhaps is even better, but that doesn't mean that it isn't viable to fight the water early on. Also you never see h20 fighting water vs water because it is not his style and also the esoc maps favor land boom over water boom.

remove farran what the hell are you doing??

?
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Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by Goldend12 »

I added the ability to delete your own posts only. In theory, if you post something, you should be able to remove it - at least, that's my line of thinking.
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

This suggestion is just so bad... It makes warships even better while the issue is that they are too good.
Honestly the most annoying thing about the sea is that you can't take it back, something like ws can't attack vills anymore and can't attack docks would change something.
Yesterday I played a game with kynesie and it was the frozen Hudson Bay which means that I couldn't build my dock because my wh didn't defend it against the 2 funes.
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by Papist »

Reducing dock damage seems like a way better idea than nerfing the water eco (schooners, boat limit, etc.). This way water remains viable, but the land player has the option of poking and containing the fishing boats without being punished too badly.
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by deleted_user0 »

Lol you guys really don't understand the problem with water. Dock damage is not an issue really. The problem with water is that warships are too good vs land units, so good that they even beat their counter units (cannons and towers/tc's etc). The problem usually isn't to kill docks from water, the problem is to kill them from the land. Docks don't do that much damage and frigates can stay out of range. And you can micro ships out of dock range.

Really this would do nothing towards balancing water
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by momuuu »

Remove the healing of docks.
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by deleted_user0 »

That could actually be interesting. Or atleast add like a drydock that can Only build and repair Warsships but has no Garrison option.

Or you know... Lower ship attack and give them high multiplier vs buildings and other ships. Or a negative multiplier vs artillery That way water combat remains the same, but can still fight off infantry sieging docks, but no longer decimate cannons or large armies.

Also make towers and tc shoot fishing boats again. It's silly that ships can rek vills but towers can't rek boats
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by momuuu »

The healing just bothers me because thats what makes beating an established sea army such a terrible task.
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by deleted_user0 »

Jerom wrote:The healing just bothers me because thats what makes beating an established sea army such a terrible task.

That's true but it atleast encourages ship micro to save ships which is like the only skill part in ship battles :/

The healing rate could be lowered though.
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by momuuu »

I suppose that is a valid point too. Ive gotta be honest that I dont actually want water to be viable so I might not be the most objective person out there.
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Re: Remove shooting ability of docks

Post by pecelot »

umeu wrote:Also make towers and tc shoot fishing boats again. It's silly that ships can rek vills but towers can't rek boats

Yeah, just remove the „Villager" tag from Fishing Ships so that buildings can deal normal damage against them. I'm pretty sure it would also mean that they can no longer garrison in Outposts and TCs, which is good. I'm not that certain, however, how it would affect revolutions, as I think you cannot produce more Fishing Ships then due to the aforementioned tag.

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