Remove shooting ability of docks

[[Armag] diarouga]

I had the same discussion with boneng but I simply disagree.
As port, going water on Hudson, Indonesia and Baja is just viable. It is not as japan, brit etc, not because you don't have enough fishes but because the wood is too far from the sea.

[Kaiserklein]

I think it is the one reason in the current meta why waterplay unbalanced.

This is your problem. By assuming water play is unbalanced you're not going to improve in beating it. Land play is far superior, especially on ESOC Maps (yes, even on indonesia)

Try taking stagecoach and teching to skirm/goon/falc/culv on 3 tcs.

Lol what. On some maps land play really isn't superior, not sure what makes you believe that. Like on indonesia, since you talked about this one, you don't have tps to boom on land, and if your opponent has offshore support he will be able to get control of all the shore, aka the whole map. Not sure you will be able to build anywhere without being in range of monitors. And the sea probs has plenty of fish.

I had the same discussion with boneng but I simply disagree.
As port, going water on Hudson, Indonesia and Baja is just viable. It is not as japan, brit etc, not because you don't have enough fishes but because the wood is too far from the sea.

So it's viable for only 1 civ on a couple maps ? That's not really what I call viable

[Mr_Bramboy]

I think it is the one reason in the current meta why waterplay unbalanced.

This is your problem. By assuming water play is unbalanced you're not going to improve in beating it. Land play is far superior, especially on ESOC Maps (yes, even on indonesia)

Try taking stagecoach and teching to skirm/goon/falc/culv on 3 tcs.

Not sure you will be able to build anywhere without being in range of monitors. And the sea probs has plenty of fish.

Sounds like you have hardly played Indonesia. Monitors can't reach I reckon ~60% of the island and Indonesia has plenty of land resources. Besides, you're supposed to hit a timing to deny the sea at some point in late fortress. This timing works because at this point the resources invested in a sea boom haven't paid off yet and therefore the land player can afford more military.

[Kaiserklein]

Sounds like you've never played against water. It's nice to try and hit a timing but if the guy is defending with boats it won't work, unless you have a good water civ yourself. if I'm ger or fre vs port or indonesia, plz tell me what timing is gonna work ? Or even with any other civ vs ports, except maybe jap brits...

[[Armag] diarouga]

Indonesia is the exception.

[Dsy]

Lol guys. The problem isnt the fishing boats but that they are killing the war ships.
So basicly its docks>warship>land units.

And some of you may think its the same as town conter with villager but its totally not.
Tc has 6,5k hp damage 90.
Dock has 2,5k hp damage 150.

So a tc can be attacked by ton of units can be destroyed.
But 1 dock can kill a frigate! Thats 1000w/c resources vet unit killed by 200w building which can be build in 10 sec.
And the funniest thing once you destroy one it doesnt matter cause fishing ships escape to the other one. XD Dont even mention edvanced dock card which increase its attack by 100% i guess.
Yeah and it takes 55 second to destroy a dock for a frigate (if it could destroy).
20vet musket destroy a tc in 40 second.

200w vs 600w.
unlimited vs 3 build limit (1 in age2)
if garrison most of the eco still active (casue he has same amount of land vills) vs If garrison vills most of the eco stops

I know everyone know these facts but its kinda strange. Its like the docks the legal monster trucks (or kinda) ingame. Cant be contested... XD Luckily they cant move or fly.

1 more funny fact. 1 dock 10 ships cost 1200w. 1 dock 1 frigate cost 700w 500c. All it mean even if you try go water vs full fishing ships you cant do that. And fishing ship guy is just winning time and prepare superlategame casue spend 1200w is a huge invesment in this game. (not even mention that 10 boats start gather earlier to get their price back)

Its broken like walls. But some people like broken things i guess like in any other multi games.

[Kaiserklein]

Docks aren't super relevant. If offshore support wasn't op, you would be able to bring artillery and get the docks down without being sniped by a frigate.

[Dsy]

That cannon move on coast is even a dangerous. You need defend those slow falcs and its probably out of the main warfare wher vills are.
You can be raided. Attacked in the back cut off reinforces so you lose more than win with those docks.

[WickedCossack]

The trick is to get on the water early yourself so you're not attempting later to break a mass of frigates with offshore support using artillery.

It's true that some of the ESOC maps could use more fish.

[Dsy]

The main point is that you cant go water naval vs water fishing boats cause you invest the same as your opponent and you cant kill the docks.
And it hurts you especially if ur opponent is more boomy civ because all of it is just winning time in this case.

[WickedCossack]

The main point is that you cant go water naval vs water fishing boats cause you invest the same as your opponent and you cant kill the docks.
And it hurts you especially if ur opponent is more boomy civ because all of it is just winning time in this case.

I haven't had much of an issue with it. Also I think there's also a big misconception that you need to kill the docks and people just suicide all their caravels into them and lose. Really all you need to do is establish a contain of your own on water. Combine that with land dominance and you should be good.

[Dsy]

The main point is that you cant go water naval vs water fishing boats cause you invest the same as your opponent and you cant kill the docks.
And it hurts you especially if ur opponent is more boomy civ because all of it is just winning time in this case.

I haven't had much of an issue with it. Also I think there's also a big misconception that you need to kill the docks and people just suicide all their caravels into them and lose. Really all you need to do is establish a contain of your own on water. Combine that with land dominance and you should be good.

Ok i agree it can work in a mirror for example. Cause invest the same on water means you do the same boom on land.
But try it in a ways where you play nonboom civ vs a boom civ. You claim your water time is running and i promise the game socres will scare you.

[Hazza54321]

buffing artilerry vs ships and nerfing ws range is probably the way to go, other than that water on ep needs more whales and fish

[[Armag] diarouga]

buffing artilerry vs ships and nerfing ws range is probably the way to go, other than that water on ep needs more whales and fish

No need to buff them, it's just a matter of range. Falcs already do very well but they get outranged xD.

[Hazza54321]

buffing artilerry vs ships and nerfing ws range is probably the way to go, other than that water on ep needs more whales and fish

No need to buff them, it's just a matter of range. Falcs already do very well but they get outranged xD.

hmm maybe but stuff like mortars miss when they are the only ones with decent range vs offshore support

[zoom]

Why lol. If you want to nerf the sea, nerf the freagates because they rape falcs.

I don't think war-ships as such should be nerfed; "Off-Shore Support" and "Euro-Trash Cannons" home-city shipments should be nerfed and war ship counters (defensive structures and artillery) buffed.

Well, even without any upgrades, freagates do too well vs falcs tbh.

I agree completely. That's why I said war ship counters should be buffed.

[zoom]

I had a good discussion with boneng about the patch and I kinda share his feeling. There should be more fish in esoc water maps, because the water boom in itself isn't a problem : it's just a boom, you can punish it. Schooners are maybe a bit too strong if anything, or maybe france and ger should have it, idk, but that's not at all the main issue anyway. The problem is atm, there probs isn't enough fish on most esoc maps to make the water boom viable, but you can still abuse offshore support. Offshore support and monitors are the main broken things in water play : a civ with offshore support can get complete control of the water abusing this card against artillery, and then once it can get monitors it just nukes everything on land. I believe monitors were already nerfed, but I think we should also do something about offshore support (not sure why though). And on the other hand, could add more fish/whales maybe, to make the boom more viable.

Adding to your post, ESOC maps (in 1 vs 1) have considerably more fish than comparable RE maps, and less whales.

[pecelot]

The main point is that you cant go water naval vs water fishing boats cause you invest the same as your opponent and you cant kill the docks.
And it hurts you especially if ur opponent is more boomy civ because all of it is just winning time in this case.

Well, if your opponent has to garrison his fishing ships in his docks, he's wasting a lot of VS, sometimes it's just enough to force him to do so, you don't have to necessarily kill the docks, as the fish nearby runs out quickly with like 10+ fishing ships.

buffing artilerry vs ships and nerfing ws range is probably the way to go, other than that water on ep needs more whales and fish

I agree entirely!

buffing artilerry vs ships and nerfing ws range is probably the way to go, other than that water on ep needs more whales and fish

No need to buff them, it's just a matter of range. Falcs already do very well but they get outranged xD.

hmm maybe but stuff like mortars miss when they are the only ones with decent range vs offshore support

That's what I said, just remove the mortars' x0.5 multiplier against warships.

[deleted_user0]

Show hidden quotes

Why lol. If you want to nerf the sea, nerf the freagates because they rape falcs.

I don't think war-ships as such should be nerfed; "Off-Shore Support" and "Euro-Trash Cannons" home-city shipments should be nerfed and war ship counters (defensive structures and artillery) buffed.

Well, even without any upgrades, freagates do too well vs falcs tbh.

I agree completely. That's why I said war ship counters should be buffed.

zooo agrees completely again. im not surprised.

[zoom]

I think it is the one reason in the current meta why waterplay unbalanced.

This is your problem. By assuming water play is unbalanced you're not going to improve in beating it. Land play is far superior, especially on ESOC Maps (yes, even on indonesia)

Try taking stagecoach and teching to skirm/goon/falc/culv on 3 tcs.

Lol what. On some maps land play really isn't superior, not sure what makes you believe that. Like on indonesia, since you talked about this one, you don't have tps to boom on land, and if your opponent has offshore support he will be able to get control of all the shore, aka the whole map. Not sure you will be able to build anywhere without being in range of monitors. And the sea probs has plenty of fish.

I had the same discussion with boneng but I simply disagree.
As port, going water on Hudson, Indonesia and Baja is just viable. It is not as japan, brit etc, not because you don't have enough fishes but because the wood is too far from the sea.

So it's viable for only 1 civ on a couple maps ? That's not really what I call viable

While true, I think it has more to do with Portuguese design (an extra Settler and good crates but no "3 Settlers" home-city shipment equivalent) and Fishing Boat cost being too high in general.

[Generator]

This isn't even that strong of an ability... while you're at it then remove the town center ability to fire as well

[Dsy]

If you read back you will see a fast comprahison which shows attacking a dock basicly not worth it cause for the cost you do that in the best case equal that with your opponent spent on docks and ships.

And if the opponent even send them garrison he wont lose eco, cause he has same amount of vills on land. But read back guys, i dont want repeat myself million times. ->> Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:15 pm ->> read

[Mr_Bramboy]

And if the opponent even send them garrison he wont lose eco, cause he has same amount of vills on land. But read back guys, i dont want repeat myself million times. ->> Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:15 pm ->> read

????

'Garrisoning villagers (boats) won't deteriorate your economy'

[zoom]

If you read back you will see a fast comprahison which shows attacking a dock basicly not worth it cause for the cost you do that in the best case equal that with your opponent spent on docks and ships.

And if the opponent even send them garrison he wont lose eco, cause he has same amount of vills on land. But read back guys, i dont want repeat myself million times. ->> Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:15 pm ->> read

1. Please apply both of your arguments to Town Centers and Settlers.
2. ???
3. Profit.

[zoom]

The trick is to get on the water early yourself so you're not attempting later to break a mass of frigates with offshore support using artillery.

It's true that some of the ESOC maps could use more fish.

It's possible. What is definitive however is that Fishing Boat cost is too high. Even if it were 80w it would be a deterrent.