Surgeons and Medicine Men

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United States of America Papist
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by Papist »

1. Restore the area healing ability feature from nilla (as opposed to having them slowly heal units one at a time)

2. Make them cheaper (maybe ~50 coin)

This would make priests a decent option for a civ like Dutch or Otto that's likely going to throw up a church anyways.
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by VITAOOOOOOOOO1 »

Thats how u make them viable >>>
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India drsingh
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by drsingh »

The heal ability is traditionally been used for tanky or expensive units.
The ability to heal in combat or heal aoe spell will change the game too much. Smaller early game mistakes getting punished more and reduced chances of come back. Imo it will decrease fun in game.

The healer and church/ temple building have their own cost means for most civ they can be built only after age 3.
For artillery while it is still a bit useful. But for other sturdy units like heavy cav, mercenaries, unique home city units the heal rate is very slow to be useful.

Another way to approach it-
Let the healers heal a %of hp of a unit instead of fixed hp/sec. Eg fast healers(surgeon) will be able to heal a unit completely from 1 hp in 15 sec. Slow healers(priest) will take 30 sec for same. An upgrade to healing ability could change it to 20 sec for them.
Field hospitals should have a fixed rate of 5%hp per sec I.e. 20 sec for full heal. On 5 most wounded units in its radius. This should not stack, and limit of 5 at a time will prevent it from becoming op.
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Great Britain Method_man714
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by Method_man714 »

Always go for the medicine man/surgeon treasure it's such a great treasure, fairly easy to kite and you get full hp afterwards.
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by _H2O »

Grunt has healed mames as well. I also have healed mames and other mercs but nothing else. 200 gold for a mame later is a good deal.
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by Aizamk »

To me it's less about healing up high hp units and more about the resists. Healing a mameluke up generally takes way too long to be of much use in a regular situation, imo. On the other hand, healing a falconet/other sort of artillery piece that has very high resist is much more valuable, since 0.75 RR means you're basically healing their effective hp at 4x the regular rate.
oranges.
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by drsingh »

Aizamk wrote:To me it's less about healing up high hp units and more about the resists. Healing a mameluke up generally takes way too long to be of much use in a regular situation, imo. On the other hand, healing a falconet/other sort of artillery piece that has very high resist is much more valuable, since 0.75 RR means you're basically healing their effective hp at 4x the regular rate.


While it is instinctive to try to heal expensive units and unique units which can't be re built, the very slow heal rate makes the whole feature redundant except for artillery.(or when you are walled off and sitting idle)

If we want to make it more useful without affecting the current game balance much then a boost to the heal rate should be considered.
Either -
->Boost heal rate by atleast 3x. (chances of being overused, with healing of even musk etc)
->Heal based on %hp (better if could be implemented)

I suppose such features don't matter much to tournament players but for most other casual players small new changes go a long way to make it exciting again.
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by edeholland »

drsingh wrote:
Aizamk wrote:To me it's less about healing up high hp units and more about the resists. Healing a mameluke up generally takes way too long to be of much use in a regular situation, imo. On the other hand, healing a falconet/other sort of artillery piece that has very high resist is much more valuable, since 0.75 RR means you're basically healing their effective hp at 4x the regular rate.


While it is instinctive to try to heal expensive units and unique units which can't be re built, the very slow heal rate makes the whole feature redundant except for artillery.(or when you are walled off and sitting idle)

If we want to make it more useful without affecting the current game balance much then a boost to the heal rate should be considered.
Either -
->Boost heal rate by atleast 3x. (chances of being overused, with healing of even musk etc)
->Heal based on %hp (better if could be implemented)

I suppose such features don't matter much to tournament players but for most other casual players small new changes go a long way to make it exciting again.


How does making a unit more useful not affect the current balance?
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by drsingh »

edeholland wrote:
drsingh wrote: If we want to make it more useful without affecting the current game balance much then a boost to the heal rate should be considered.
Either -
->Boost heal rate by atleast 3x. (chances of being overused, with healing of even musk etc)
->Heal based on %hp (better if could be implemented)

How does making a unit more useful not affect the current balance?

I meant as compared with AOE spell and cheaper healers suggested earlier.
It will change game a bit, but will be equal for all civ.

What i intend is to have its use is -> Like the difference between Resource shipments and villager shipments. You invest in healer once, and have weaker army initially compared to investing only in army, but after a while u get increasing returns in army and will have a stronger army later as compared to if healer not used at all.
For this to be viable the ratio needed for Army units to healer units should be 2-3 healers to around 40 unit army of 1v1. But currently the ratio is far worse like 10 : 30. which means u are at significant disadvantage if u build healers. and will not pay off for much more than the usual duration of game.

Just tweak it a little. Say 2X/3X rate as compared to now. It will still be used only situationally, as compared to extreme rare scenarios right now.
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Netherland Antilles Laurence Drake
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by Laurence Drake »

make surgeons training
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by Aizamk »

Laurence Drake wrote:make surgeons training

Why not just send the Master Surgeons card... :hmm:
oranges.
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Netherland Antilles Laurence Drake
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by Laurence Drake »

Aizamk wrote:
Laurence Drake wrote:make surgeons training

Why not just send the Master Surgeons card... :hmm:

too much taxes
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by pecelot »

Aizamk wrote:
Laurence Drake wrote:make surgeons training

Why not just send the Master Surgeons card... :hmm:

I guess you may not have enough space as TEAM Cheap Priests is a number one priority :!:
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by edeholland »

drsingh wrote:
edeholland wrote:
drsingh wrote: If we want to make it more useful without affecting the current game balance much then a boost to the heal rate should be considered.
Either -
->Boost heal rate by atleast 3x. (chances of being overused, with healing of even musk etc)
->Heal based on %hp (better if could be implemented)

How does making a unit more useful not affect the current balance?

I meant as compared with AOE spell and cheaper healers suggested earlier.
It will change game a bit, but will be equal for all civ.

What i intend is to have its use is -> Like the difference between Resource shipments and villager shipments. You invest in healer once, and have weaker army initially compared to investing only in army, but after a while u get increasing returns in army and will have a stronger army later as compared to if healer not used at all.
For this to be viable the ratio needed for Army units to healer units should be 2-3 healers to around 40 unit army of 1v1. But currently the ratio is far worse like 10 : 30. which means u are at significant disadvantage if u build healers. and will not pay off for much more than the usual duration of game.

Just tweak it a little. Say 2X/3X rate as compared to now. It will still be used only situationally, as compared to extreme rare scenarios right now.


It won't be equal to all civs. Civs with high hp/resist units will have a bigger advantage and civs without surgeons and medicine men will have a disadvantage.
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by Panmaster »

Would it be possible to make the field hospital like the med bunker in Company of Heroes so it makes new units for free from dead ones? e.g. 10 dead musketeers => 1 free musketeer

Healing units are useless because land units die too quickly. :ship: Ships are the only units for which healing is useful.
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Netherland Antilles Laurence Drake
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by Laurence Drake »

Panmaster wrote:Would it be possible to make the field hospital like the med bunker in Company of Heroes so it makes new units for free from dead ones? e.g. 10 dead musketeers => 1 free musketeer

Healing units are useless because land units die too quickly. :ship: Ships are the only units for which healing is useful.

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Poland pecelot
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by pecelot »

you mean with docks, right?
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by Panmaster »

pecelot wrote:you mean with docks, right?

Right. Advanced docks heal faster.
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by drsingh »

@edeholland I have to agree with you.
I was wishfully pushing this for my single player games. :)

Though one last attempt.
Currently 2 or more healers can't heal same unit. 1 heals and others stand idle.
(that's how I remember, correct me if I'm wrong)

What if multiple healers could concentrate healing on one unit. Means only one army unit needs to be idle at any given point in time. Faster healing achieved without actually changing heal rates.
So, would this be possible to do(moddable)??
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by _H2O »

They changed from castable to idle healing because that's way more viable than castable healing lol.
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by lesllamas »

_H2O wrote:They changed from castable to idle healing because that's way more viable than castable healing lol.


Wouldn't this depend pretty heavily on the raw values?
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by _H2O »

Yeah obviously if we raise the cap to infinite and make the heal rate 20x faster but make it castable then it's better.

Assuming both have similar rates of healing the passive healing is just better.
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Re: Surgeons and Medicine Men

Post by lesllamas »

_H2O wrote:Yeah obviously if we raise the cap to infinite and make the heal rate 20x faster but make it castable then it's better.

Assuming both have similar rates of healing the passive healing is just better.


But why do you have to assume that given the purpose of this thread? Somewhere there is a balanced number between the extremes. This thread is about making healers useful, and changing those values is pretty simple. If you don't want to do it for like, meta reasons, fine. I don't know enough about it. But it's not like you can't test out castable healing with increased rate and cap.

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